Israel And The Palestinians (now with added Iran)

[welshbairn]

Tha Gazan health ministry supplied a list of the dead to al Jazeera - http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

Over 80% are male and most of those 20-30 years old. That's not indiscriminate killing, that's targeted.

Tuesday July 8

Seraj Ayad Abed al-A’al, 8

Mohammed Ayman Ashour, 15

Hussein Yousef Kawareh, 13

Bassim Salim Kawareh, 10

Mousa Habib, 16

Ahmad Na’el Mehdi, 16

Dunia Mehdi Hamad, 16

Wednesday July 9

Mohammed Areef, 13

Amir Areef, 10

Ibrahim Masri, 14

Mohammed Khalaf al-Nawasra, 4

Nidal Khalaf al-Nawasra al-Meghazi, 5

Salah Awwad al-Nawasra al-Meghazi, 6

Ranim Jawde Abdel Ghafour, 18 months

Maryam Atieh Mohammed al-Arja, 11

Thursday July 10

Sa’ad Mahmoud al-Hajj, 17

Fatima Mahmoud al-Hajj, 12

Abdullah Ramadan Abu Ghazzal, 5

Yasmin Mohammed Mutawwaq, 4

Bassem Abdel Rahman Khattab, 6

Friday July 11

Nour Marwan al-Najdi, 10

Ghalia Deeb Jabr al-Ghanam, 7

Saher Abu Namous, 3

Saturday July 12

Anas Youssef Kandil, 17

Qassem Jaber Adwan Awdeh, 16

Qassi Isam al-Batash, 12

Mohammed Isam al-Batash, 17

Manar Majid al-Batash, 14

Anas Alaa al-Batash, 10

Sunday July 13

Hussam Ibrahim al-Najjar, 14

Monday July 14

Ziad Maher al-Najjar, 17

Sara Omar Sheikh al-Eid, 4

Kamal Ated Youssif Abu Taha, 16

Wednesday July 16

Ibrahim Ramadan Hassan Abu Daqa, 10

Ahed Atef Bakr, 10

Zakaria Ahed Bakr, 10

Mohammed Ramez Bakr, 11

Ismail Mohammed Bakr, 9

Hamza Ra’ed Thari, 6

Yasmin al-Astal, 4

Usama Mahmoud al-Astal, 6

Thursday July 17

Fulla Tarek Shaheber, 8

Jihad Issam Shaheber, 10

Wassim Issam Shaheber, 9

Yassin al-Humaideh, 4

Rahaf Khalil al-Jabbour, 4

Mohammed Salem Natiz, 4

Mohammed Shadi Natiz, 15

Fares Jomaa al-Mahmoum, five months

Friday July 18

Walaa Abu Ismail Muslim, 12

Mohammed Abu Muslim, 13

Ahmad Abu Muslim, 14

Abdullah Jamal al-Samiri, 17

Imad Hamed Alouwein, 7

Qassem Hamed Alouwein, 4

Sara Mohammed Boustan, 13

Rizk Ahmed al-Hayek, 2

Siham Moussa Abu Jarad, 15

Siham Moussa Abu Jarad, 15

Ahlam Naim Abu Jarad, 13

Hania Abdel Rahman Abu Jarad, 3

Samih Naim Abu Jarad, 1

Moussa Abdel Rahman Abu Jarad, 6

Amjad Salem Shaat, 15

Saturday July 19

Mohammed Bassam al-Sirri, 17

Wissam Redda Salhia, 15

Ibrahim Jamal Kamal Nasser, 13

Mohammed Ziad al-Rahhel, 6

Ruaia Mahmoud al-Zuweidi, 6

Nagham Mahmoud al-Zuweidi, 2

Amer Hamoudah, 7

Mahmoud Anwar Abu Shabab, 16

Sunday July 20

Anas Mahmoud Moamar, 17

Ibrahim Khalil Abd Ammar, 13

Iman Khalil Abed Ammar, 9

Imama Isama Khalil al-Hayya, 9

Talla Akram Ahmad al-Atwi, 7

Khalil Osama Khalil al-Hayya, 7

Dima Adil Abdullah Aslim, 2

Dina Rushdi Omar Hamadi, 15

Rahaf Akram Ismail Abu Joumea, 4

Saji Hassan Akram al-Hallaq, 4

Samia Hamid Mohammed al-Shaykh Khalil, 3

Shadi Ziad Hassan Aslim, 15

Assem Khalil Abed Ammar, 4

Ola Ziad Hassan Aslim, 11

Omar Jamil Soubhi Hammouda, 10

Ghada Soubhi Sa’adi Ayyad, 9

Fadi Ziad Hassan Aslim, 10

Qinan Hassan Akram al-Hallaq, 6

Mohammed Ashraf Rafiq Ayyad, 6

Mohammed Rami Fathi Ayyad, 2

Mohammed Hani Mohammad al-Halaq, 2

Marrah Shakil Ahmad al-Jammal, 11

Marrah Shakil Ahmad al-Jammal, 11

Marwa Salman Ahmad al-Sirsawi, 13

Hiba Hamid Mohammed al-Shaykh Khalil, 13

Mohammed Ayman al-Shaer, 5

Hibatullah Akram al-Shaer, 7

Sha’aban Jamil Ziyadeh, 12

Abdullah Youssef Daraji, 3

Mohammed Raja’ Mohammed Handam, 15

Aya Bahjat Abu Sultan, 15

Qinan Akram al-Halaq, 5

Rayan Taysir Abu Jamea, 8

Rozan Tawfiq Ahmad Abu Jamea, 14

Tawfiq Ahmad Abu Jamea, 5

Haifa Tawfiq Ahmad Abu Jamea, 9

Shahinaz Walid Ahmad Abu Jamea, 1

Hossam Hossam Abu Qaynas, 5

Monday July 21

Ahmad Ayman Mahrous Siyam, 17

Mustafa Nabil Mahrous Siyam, 12

Ghaydaa Nabil Mahrous Siyam, 8

Dalal Nabil Mahrous Siyam, 8

Abdullah Trad Abu Hjeir, 16

Mayar al-Yazaji, 2

Unidentified child, 5

Yaser Ibrahim Dib al-Kilani, 8

Elias Ibrahim Dib al-Kilani, 4

Sawsan Ibrahim Dib al-Kilani, 11

Rim Ibrahim Dib al-Kilani, 12

Yaseen Ibrahim Dib al-Kilani, 9

Tuesday July 22

Mona Rami al-Kharwat, 4 (her pregnant mother died alongside her)

Ahmad Salah abu Sido, 17

Rawan Ziad Hajjaj, 15

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/israel-bans-radio-broadcast-that-named-children-killed-in-gaza--lyVk1H9Cbg

[Newbornbairn]

They were in the lists I linked to. Your point is?

[welshbairn]

They were in the lists I linked to. Your point is?

It's not all about numbers. The Israelis have no doubt calculated the expected "collateral damage" and deemed it acceptable, be it a suspect in a crowded restaurant, block of flats, a UN sanctuary, or unknowns, possibly children playing on a beach.

[Newbornbairn]

I agree to an extent but it is about numbers. When we see half a dozen clips on tv showing half a dozen attacks where children/women/doctors are killed along with a running total saying 400,700,1000 dead, the effect is to imply that this is 400, 700, 1000 innocents. It's a propaganda war and we shouldn't be selectively quoting information to make a case.

Don't get me wrong, the number of children killed is shifting my opinion on this. I wish it would all stop now but both sides keep breaking ceasefires so clearly both sides want this to continue.

[welshbairn]

True.

The Israelis keep going out of the thought that since they've started they might as well finish, although they never will.

Hamas keep going because there's now more global revulsion at the Israeli actions than ever, far more than when Hamas refrained from their futile rocket attacks and the Israelis kept tightening the siege.

Edited July 27, 2014 by welshbairn

[~~~]

Well makes sense as to why the UK government won't speak out against Israeli

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/16/pro-israel-lobby-conservatives-channel4-dispatches

[ham89]

I agree with a lot of the above. There does seem a lot of emphasis on how 'evil' Israel are but there never seems to be much reporting on a more balanced argument.

Hamas have launched 2,255 Rockets in the last 19 days. A fair chunk of that was ceasefires set by either side.

How about Hamas stop firing rockets then see what happens?

Bored of all this shite now, both sides need their heads knocked together.

[dorlomin]

There are 5 ongoing conflicts that have a greater death toll this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Many conflicts happen with zero attention. Perhaps the worst example was "the great war of Africa" were some people estimate up to 5 million people died with virtually no press.

While it is good that a conflict get press and international pressure is brought to bear on a rouge state like Israel, I am skeptical of the motivations of some whipping up concerns.

[~~~]

How about Hamas stop firing rockets then see what happens?

Bored of all this shite now, both sides need their heads knocked together.

You do know Palestine is under Israeli occupation?

This isn't a simple we don't like Israeli so let's fire some rockets and Israel retaliate.

[pandarilla]

I agree with a lot of the above. There does seem a lot of emphasis on how 'evil' Israel are but there never seems to be much reporting on a more balanced argument.

Hamas have launched 2,255 Rockets in the last 19 days. A fair chunk of that was ceasefires set by either side.

How about Hamas stop firing rockets then see what happens?

Bored of all this shite now, both sides need their heads knocked together.

Oh you're bored eh? We better get word to Hamas and the Israeli government. What a stupid fucking thing to say.

And another thing, 2,255 rockets - the vast majority of which were intercepted by their US-funded defence system.

[welshbairn]

You do know Palestine is under Israeli occupation?

This isn't a simple we don't like Israeli so let's fire some rockets and Israel retaliate.

It is a bit like that tbh.

[pandarilla]

It is a bit like that tbh.

No its not.

Its an illegal occupation, and a fucking disgraceful 'war'.

[welshbairn]

No its not.

Its an illegal occupation, and a fucking disgraceful 'war'.

There was no point in firing the missiles unless they thought Israel would retaliate, and change international attention and opinion. The Palestinians are not idiots, they would have known how crappy their missiles are against the "Iron Dome" or even without it.

[Dunning1874]

I agree with a lot of the above. There does seem a lot of emphasis on how 'evil' Israel are but there never seems to be much reporting on a more balanced argument.

Hamas have launched 2,255 Rockets in the last 19 days. A fair chunk of that was ceasefires set by either side.

How about Hamas stop firing rockets then see what happens?

Bored of all this shite now, both sides need their heads knocked together.

See what happens? If every Palestinian renounced violence and handed over every last weapon in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel would continue it's blockade of Gaza, it would continue to bulldoze homes and build illegal settlements in the West Bank, it would continue to indefinitely detain Palestinians without trial, as they always have.

While it's right to point out that Hamas are a vile organisation who have committed war crimes, Israel can't hide behind that. Criticising Israel does not equate to supporting Hamas and the fact Hamas are run by anti-semitic zealots does not excuse Israel's own war crimes. Netanyahu and Likud don't want peace, they never have wanted it and they've never acted in a way which suggests they want it. They know fine well that their actions only serve to radicalise ordinary Palestinians and drive more towards violence, they know fine well that the only way there'll ever be a lasting peace is if Israel withdraws and lifts the blockade, demonstrating that there is a genuine willingness to compromise and work towards peace on their part, but the likes of Netanyahu, Livni and the bigots at the grassroots of their party are as repulsed by the idea of a sovereign Palestinian state as the bigots in Hamas are by the existence of an Israeli state.

There are 5 ongoing conflicts that have a greater death toll this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts

Many conflicts happen with zero attention. Perhaps the worst example was "the great war of Africa" were some people estimate up to 5 million people died with virtually no press.

While it is good that a conflict get press and international pressure is brought to bear on a rouge state like Israel, I am skeptical of the motivations of some whipping up concerns.

Fair point, but the extent to which Western governments so openly lend support - diplomatically, financially and militarily - to Israel where they don't with other conflicts naturally leads to the public of those states focusing more attention on Israel due to the contribution of their own governments to the situation.

[welshbairn]

a genuine willingness to compromise and work towards peace on their part, but the likes of Netanyahu, Livni and the bigots at the grassroots of their party are as repulsed by the idea of a sovereign Palestinian state

The Labour Party were exactly the same, settlement building in the occupied territories actually went up when they pretended to be negotiating for a two state solution, making it impossible.

[Newbornbairn]

See what happens? If every Palestinian renounced violence and handed over every last weapon in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel would continue it's blockade of Gaza, it would continue to bulldoze homes and build illegal settlements in the West Bank, it would continue to indefinitely detain Palestinians without trial, as they always have.

Hold on - Israel ended an occupation of Gaza in 2005 and pulled out leaving Fatah in charge. The blockade by Israel and Egypt was imposed in 2007 when Hamas took power and started bringing in long range rockets to fire at Israel.

[welshbairn]

Hold on - Israel ended an occupation of Gaza in 2005 and pulled out leaving Fatah in charge. The blockade by Israel and Egypt was imposed in 2007 when Hamas took power and started bringing in long range rockets to fire at Israel.

Independence, but not as we know it: http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/control_on_air_space_and_territorial_waters

[THE KING]

You believe Israel has no right to exist. I bet you do not believe that Australia should not exist.

classic Isreali propaganda line, slag isreal and youre anti semitic. .

are these guys?

http://www.truetorahjews.org/our_mission

[THE KING]

Hold on - Israel ended an occupation of Gaza in 2005 and pulled out leaving Fatah in charge. The blockade by Israel and Egypt was imposed in 2007 when Hamas took power and started bringing in long range rockets to fire at Israel.

Yes, the Gaza Strip is still occupied. Despiteofficial Israeli remonstrations that the unilateral disengagement of 2005, which removed Israeli military bases and Jewish settlers, transformed Gaza into “no longer occupied territory,” neither those changes nor anything that has transpired since has ended the occupation.

“Occupation” is a legal designation of an international nature. Israel’s occupation of Gaza continues to the present day because (a) Israel continues to exercise “effective control” over this area, (b) the conflict that produced the occupation has not ended, and © an occupying state cannot unilaterally (and without international/diplomatic agreement) transform the international status of occupied territory except, perhaps, if that unilateral action terminates all manner of effective control.

NonsenseThe irony of Israel’s assertion that Gaza is no longer occupied can be best appreciated when one considers Israel’s earlier position that Gaza and the West Bank were not occupied in 1967. Israeli officials claimed that the status of these areas was sui generis because, at the time of conquest, they were controlled by but not sovereign to Egypt and Jordan, respectively. “Occupation,” according to Israel, only pertains to areas that were recognized sovereign territory of the displaced states. Hence the premise, never accepted by the international community, was: no sovereignty, therefore no occupation. Rather, Israel insisted that Gaza and the West Bank were “administered” territory. The other premise of the original “not occupied” position was that Israel could lay claim to all or parts of these lands because they compose the remainder of Eretz Israel to which the Jewish people have historic and/or biblical rights.

[Newbornbairn]

It's customary to use quotes when repeating other's words, not try to pass them off as your own original views.