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Scots Independence Referendum

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Why always pick up on weakness? This is full on Jocko pick out what we are a shite at rather than what we are good at.

Because when dealing with the Economy, weaknesses are every bit as important, if not more important when determining the extent to which it would succeed.

It's not a question of what we're good at or bad at. It's a question about what will be the best for the Scottish Economy. And it isn't (based on what I've seen) any of the economic proposals put forward by those in favour of independence.

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Why always pick up on weakness? This is full on Jocko pick out what we are a shite at rather than what we are good at.

Aye, the Slovaks and the Lithuanians just got on with independence. If they can do it with only a tenth of our resources, why are we so hesitant?

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I've said it before, if the SNP would lay out their vision for an independent Scotland, then I'll consider it on it's merits. As it stands, it's a journey into the unknown and not worth the risk in my opinion. I know that they can't really be completely sure of what it would be like, although it would be nice to gain a general overview.

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I've said it before, if the SNP would lay out their vision for an independent Scotland, then I'll consider it on it's merits. As it stands, it's a journey into the unknown and not worth the risk in my opinion. I know that they can't really be completely sure of what it would be like, although it would be nice to gain a general overview.

Thats good that you at least have an open mind.

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Yip do you?

If you have an open mind, why are you so convinced that you need to change the minds of others?

And yes. I do.

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If you have an open mind, why are you so convinced that you need to change the minds of others?

And yes. I do.

Opening ones mind is different to changing ones mind that must be the individuals choice.

I wont ever force you to believe in what i do.

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Opening ones mind is different to changing ones mind that must be the individuals choice.

I wont ever force you to believe in what i do.

If you intend to "change (my) mind", I think there's a fair bit of force there.

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If you intend to "change (my) mind", I think there's a fair bit of force there.

Persuasion and force are two different things.

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Persuasion and force are two different things.

And persuasion on this issue cannot be done by an individual but by an economically sound arguement coupled with evidence that the whole of the UK would be better off for such a change.

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figures are from 2002 but nothing has really changed

Ten Common Financial Questions

1. Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an

English subsidy.

Fact: Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source

Treasury Red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?

2. Scotland could not survive without the Barnett formula handout from England.

The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket

money back out of Scotland’s pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed

£42.7 billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 billions doled back in return via Barnett. It

would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 billions as an Independent Country.

3. North Sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......

According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea

Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted

than has already been exploited

4. Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.

False. Scotland is a net exporter of oil and gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europe’s

oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the

proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social

and economic benefits for all Scotland’s Citizens and public services.

5. Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.

Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force.

Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed

forces (including Trident). Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional

armed forces half the size of the present UK's

6. We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.

False. The UK as a whole has a balance of payments deficit of £35 billions per annum. Scotland

however actually contributes a surplus of £2.3 billions.

7. Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.

Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to he south (Germany) and she does very well indeed.

Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she

is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door

to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy.

Scotland has more than enough willpower to compete and prosper.

8. Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.

Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the Arctic Circle yet has the

third highest standard of living in Europe.

9.The City of London is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.

Scotland is one of Europe’s top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of

200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20

bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre.

10. Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.

Who says so. It’s strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their

affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be

found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there.

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And persuasion on this issue cannot be done by an individual but by an economically sound arguement coupled with evidence that the whole of the UK would be better off for such a change.

Oh come on. Thatcher, did she see things that way? I could add Blair and Brown to that aswel. I care about you and your children in Scotland because i live in the the real world where things have an effect on us. My true belief is i don't give a toss about the rest of the UK because in realism they have never gave a toss about us. I don't have this self-hate attitude that we are useless at everything in-fact i find it insulting as a free thinking individual.

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figures are from 2002 but nothing has really changed

Siol Nan Gaidheal being your source, forgive me if I'm a tad cynical in saying that they don't provide a balanced account of the financial implications of independence. ;)

But as for the points:

1st One: relative tax contributions. relative to other parts of the UK (London, Northern Ireland and some parts of North East England excepted) we also receive more public expenditure.

2nd point: why not then just get rid of the Barnett formula and find a "fairer" way of redistributing the tax revenue?

3rd point: It's no more Scotland's oil than it's the UK's oil.

4th point: It's no more Scotland's oil than it's the UK's oil.

5th point: But Switzerland and Norway are internationally irrelevent on a military scale. Why shouldn't Scotland be part of a pro-active role in places like the Balkans (and Afghanistan) along with other NATO troops when trouble flares up?

6th point: How much of this surplus depends on oil (the price of which is falling, and to which Scotland are no more entitled than the rest of the UK anyway)?

7th point: Scotland's economy has a large dependence on the financial sector. It would be less well equipped to deal with economic crises like the one we presently face on its own, with Banks going bust like they did in Iceland as opposed to staying afloat (just) with UK Treasury intervention.

8th point: :lol: remind me what just happened to their economy?

9th point: And therefore one of the most vulnerable to an economic crash. :)

10th point: I wouldn't argue that in the first place.

And anyway, quite a bit of this evidence only suggests that Scotland could cope on its own. It doesn't show that we would be better off on our own, and doesn't address the issue that greater devolution could achieve the same goals without having to separate.

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And anyway, quite a bit of this evidence only suggests that Scotland could cope on its own. It doesn't show that we would be better off on our own, and doesn't address the issue that greater devolution could achieve the same goals without having to separate.

Its a good job that we have the Calman Commission to deliver a fair and unbiased view of that eh!

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Its a good job that we have the Calman Commission to deliver a fair and unbiased view of that eh!

Aye, Scotland should not have fiscal autonomy because its unfair to the rest of the UK :lol: point proven.

Smash the union don't break it.

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figures are from 2002 but nothing has really changed

Written by Big Eck himself? Had a wee chuckle at quite a few things there (and I have an open mind about independence, I just haven't seen any real reason to do it) but the Iceland comparison was excellent.

The whole 'Switzerland is small and is the most prosperous country in Europe' argument is all good and well, but you have to remember the massive banking industry over there. What do we have? Call centres?

I'd imagine the figures also include the large amount of foreign millionaires / billionaires who move for the low taxes - a scenario hugely unlikely in an independent Scotland.

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Oh come on. Thatcher, did she see things that way? I could add Blair and Brown to that aswel.

Sorry, what relevence do Thatcher, Blair and Brown have to this?

I care about you and your children in Scotland because i live in the the real world where things have an effect on us. My true belief is i don't give a toss about the rest of the UK because in realism they have never gave a toss about us.

Ah here it is! The us and them dogma. It finally comes out. Well I've got news for you RTB. A politician doesn't suddenly *care* more because he's sitting in Holyrood instead of Westminster.

I don't have this self-hate attitude that we are useless at everything in-fact i find it insulting as a free thinking individual.

I find it offensive that any legitimate reasoning that suggests Scotland might, shock horror, not be the land of milk and honey with Independence is automatically treated as being as a result of a "self-hate attitude". I'm proud to be Scottish. I'm proud to be British. But I'm also a realist. We're only human. We're no better than other nations just because of our origins. Independence would have to come with almost revolutionary reform to bring about any tangible benefit that couldn't be achieved within the present Union framework. That is not adopting self-hate; it's finding a way to resolve problems without the need to fracture and split from eachother.

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And anyway, quite a bit of this evidence only suggests that Scotland could cope on its own. It doesn't show that we would be better off on our own, and doesn't address the issue that greater devolution could achieve the same goals without having to separate.

so at least you admit we can cope on our own :D

its a start,sadly ive moved house recently and i cannae find all my own material,hence the copy and paste from dubious sources,i shall dig out some more material when i build a bookshelf for the spare bedroom and unpack all my books,which at the rate im going will be around 2010-2020 :lol::lol:

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