Scots Independence Referendum

[Ad Lib]

The concepts of nation and state are not identical.

And we are dealing with state.

By definition someone Scottish by state affiliation is British by state affiliation.

In any case, with both concepts, the "nation" that is Britain is constructed by its constituent parts. That includes Scotland.

[Reynard]

The concepts of nation and state are not identical.

Yes. But if you are born on the island then by definition you are part of the British Isles and can be labelled British.

[centralparker]

Yes. But if you are born on the island then by definition you are part of the British Isles and can be labelled British.

Of course, but you can choose whether or not to adopt that identity.

[Reynard]

Hopefully Shetland will push for full independence. And Fife too.

[Ad Lib]

Of course, but you can choose whether or not to adopt that identity.

The identity is legal, not emotional.

[Gordon EF]

But to feel Scottish is to feel British, since to be Scottish is to be British. It's self defined.

Obviously I'm (and most of us are) Scottish and British. I have no problem describing myself as both. But most Scots feel that their Scottish identity is different to their British one. It is possible to feel more Scottish than British whilst being totally comfortable being both. When I meet foreigners I would say that I'm Scottish, not British.

[Reynard]

Obviously I'm (and most of us are) Scottish and British. I have no problem describing myself as both. But most Scots feel that their Scottish identity is different to their British one. It is possible to feel more Scottish than British whilst being totally comfortable being both. When I meet foreigners I would say that I'm Scottish, not British.

Absolutely. But there are people on here trying to deny that they are British. It's laughable.

[Gordon EF]

Absolutely. But there are people on here trying to deny that they are British. It's laughable.

I agree, it's pretty pathetic to try and deny that every Scot is a Brit as much as every English and Welsh person (Ireland's for another thread, probably on the OF board) is British.

It's like a Swede trying to deny they're Scandanavian.

[Ad Lib]

Obviously I'm (and most of us are) Scottish and British. I have no problem describing myself as both. But most Scots feel that their Scottish identity is different to their British one. It is possible to feel more Scottish than British whilst being totally comfortable being both. When I meet foreigners I would say that I'm Scottish, not British.

I agree that people perceive differences between the two, because Scottish identity is only a constituent part of British identity. What I cannot stand, however, is those who claim that the two are completely separate, as there is a lot more the identities have in common than they have differences.

My point was that those who completely dismiss "Britishness" as not "Scottishness" miss the whole point of what it is.

[vikingTON]

And we are dealing with state.

By definition someone Scottish by state affiliation is British by state affiliation.

In any case, with both concepts, the "nation" that is Britain is constructed by its constituent parts. That includes Scotland.

State affiliation to Scotland? I fail to see how that can currently held to be an option.

Yes. But if you are born on the island then by definition you are part of the British Isles and can be labelled British.

Was that the version of definition being discussed?

Hopefully Shetland will push for full independence. And Fife too.

Indeed. What I would have said to CP yesterday had I the time is that Scotland's national teritories are rather murky themselves. Shetland was part of Scotland for a lesser timescale thab Scotland has been part of Britain. Where ought their affiliations lie? Norway?

[Ad Lib]

State affiliation to Scotland? I fail to see how that can currently held to be an option.

By this, I mean, for example, the distinction made between students who are born in the territory of Scotland and those who aren't. The difference is recognised in law to the extent, for example, that I will not have to pay tuition fees at University whilst my friend, who was born in Hull, despite having been educated for the whole of Secondary School in Aberdeen, will have to pay fees if he goes to a Scottish University.

The distinction is made by territory.

[Reynard]

It's not as if I FEEL British or anything like that. I couldn't actually give a f**k about that apart from if we have a sportsman that is beating the Americans at something or the b*****d Aussies. I know that I am Scottish, I have represented my country at sport and stuff like that. I'm quite happy being Scottish. I don't want to be run by a Scottish government though. I think we would be worse off and more heavily taxed and I am not prepared to pay that price. Sorry.

Anyone that puts their trust in politicians is a fool. Would I feel any more Scottish because I was paying tax to the Scottish treasury? I certainly don't think so. I'm quite happy with the way things are now. The trouble is that I just know that Scotland would elect the biggest bunch of socialist f**k ups imaginable and they would completelt wreck the place. No thanks.

[centralparker]

that I will not have to pay tuition fees at University whilst my friend, who was born in Hull, despite having been educated for the whole of Secondary School in Aberdeen, will have to pay fees if he goes to a Scottish University.

The distinction is made by territory.

Doesn't sound very fair. Presumably his parents have been working and paying taxes in Scotland for at least 5 years. Can you not become naturalised after a certain amount of time?

[Paco]

It's not as if I FEEL British or anything like that. I couldn't actually give a f**k about that apart from if we have a sportsman that is beating the Americans at something or the b*****d Aussies. I know that I am Scottish, I have represented my country at sport and stuff like that. I'm quite happy being Scottish. I don't want to be run by a Scottish government though. I think we would be worse off and more heavily taxed and I am not prepared to pay that price. Sorry.

Anyone that puts their trust in politicians is a fool. Would I feel any more Scottish because I was paying tax to the Scottish treasury? I certainly don't think so. I'm quite happy with the way things are now. The trouble is that I just know that Scotland would elect the biggest bunch of socialist f**k ups imaginable and they would completelt wreck the place. No thanks.

Spot on. Best post on the thread.

[vikingTON]

By this, I mean, for example, the distinction made between students who are born in the territory of Scotland and those who aren't. The difference is recognised in law to the extent, for example, that I will not have to pay tuition fees at University whilst my friend, who was born in Hull, despite having been educated for the whole of Secondary School in Aberdeen, will have to pay fees if he goes to a Scottish University.

The distinction is made by territory.

That's not really an 'affiliation' given that is it by birthplace and not by choice. I doubt tuition fees make any citizen of the UK feel more 'Scottish' or otherwise.

[Gordon EF]

I agree that people perceive differences between the two, because Scottish identity is only a constituent part of British identity. What I cannot stand, however, is those who claim that the two are completely separate, as there is a lot more the identities have in common than they have differences.

My point was that those who completely dismiss "Britishness" as not "Scottishness" miss the whole point of what it is.

I wouldn't say it is. Scotland is a part of Britain but I wouldn't say that Scottish identity is only a part of a larger British identity.

[Ad Lib]

Doesn't sound very fair. Presumably his parents have been working and paying taxes in Scotland for at least 5 years. Can you not become naturalised after a certain amount of time?

Without wanting to distract the topic further, he's lived in Scotland for 5 and a half years. I asked him if there was some sort of "naturalisation", but from what he'd been told by Student Finance Advisors who came to our school and from the Guidance department, he seems to be ineligible. It does seem somewhat unfair, I mean... it's not his fault he was born in Hull (that works on several levels ).

[Reynard]

Spot on. Best post on the thread.

I know. It was pretty amazing.

Apart from the typo at the end. That really ruined it.

[Ad Lib]

I wouldn't say it is. Scotland is a part of Britain but I wouldn't say that Scottish identity is only a part of a larger British identity.

Sorry, my use of only was confusing. My implication is that other identities make up the British identity too.

[centralparker]

I wouldn't say it is. Scotland is a part of Britain but I wouldn't say that Scottish identity is only a part of a larger British identity.

There will be a certain amount of overlap as we share the same language and 300 years of political history. But Scottish identity isn't wholly a subset of the British model.