Rugby Union

[printer]

On 16/07/2021 at 21:12, Mark Connolly said:

 

I genuinely think this is the least predictable Lions team in a long time, not just under Gatland.

Very much this. I think only probably A Watson, Biggar (with Finn injured), Furlong and Itoje are certainties to start on Saturday. I think Gatland will go with the following, but I could be completely wrong. (I've put my different choices in brackets).

15 Williams

14 Watson

13 Daly (Harris)

12 Henshaw

11 Adams

10 Biggar

9 Murray (Price)

8 Conan (Curry)

7 Watson

6 Lawes

5 Jones

4 Itoje

3 Furlong

2 Cowan Dickie

1 Sutherland 

Edited July 19, 2021 by printer

[honestly united]

9 minutes ago, printer said:

Very much this. I think only probably A Watson, Biggar (with Finn injured), Furlong and Itoje are certainties to start on Saturday. I think Gatland will go with the following, but I could be completely wrong. (I've put my different choices in brackets).

15 Williams Hogg

14 Watson

13 Daly (Harris)

12 Henshaw

11 Adams

10 Biggar

9 Murray (Price)

8 Conan (Curry)

7 Watson

6 Lawes Beirne

5 Jones

4 Itoje

3 Furlong

2 Cowan Dickie

1 Sunderland  Sutherland

I mostly agree but with the changes above - i think Gatland will go with Williams, Farrell and Price as the back replacements as covers all bases.

[ajwffc]

The trouble is, the SRU rush their Scottish coaches through the system just so they can say they have a Scottish coach.  Townsend should be just coming into the Scotland set up now, but the SRU fast tracked him.  I don't really think the idea of a Scottish coach makes much difference - it seems to be more about coaching teams now anyway.  Mike Blair seems like the obvious shout.  
I also think Blair Kinghorn pretty much is what he is at this point.  
From the outside, Cockerill seems to have taken Edinburgh to at least par with Glasgow in terms of professionalism, but Jamie Bhatti seems to have loathed him.  

From what I remember at the time there was some French clubs looking at Townsend. So the SRU decided fast tracking him ws the best way to keep him.

[Savage Henry]

2 minutes ago, ajwffc said:

3 hours ago, Savage Henry said:

The trouble is, the SRU rush their Scottish coaches through the system just so they can say they have a Scottish coach.  Townsend should be just coming into the Scotland set up now, but the SRU fast tracked him.  I don't really think the idea of a Scottish coach makes much difference - it seems to be more about coaching teams now anyway.  Mike Blair seems like the obvious shout.  
I also think Blair Kinghorn pretty much is what he is at this point.  
From the outside, Cockerill seems to have taken Edinburgh to at least par with Glasgow in terms of professionalism, but Jamie Bhatti seems to have loathed him.  

From what I remember at the time there was some French clubs looking at Townsend. So the SRU decided fast tracking him ws the best way to keep him.

Yeah. I still think Cotter had unfinished business. 

[honestly united]

9 minutes ago, ajwffc said:

3 hours ago, Savage Henry said:

The trouble is, the SRU rush their Scottish coaches through the system just so they can say they have a Scottish coach.  Townsend should be just coming into the Scotland set up now, but the SRU fast tracked him.  I don't really think the idea of a Scottish coach makes much difference - it seems to be more about coaching teams now anyway.  Mike Blair seems like the obvious shout.  
I also think Blair Kinghorn pretty much is what he is at this point.  
From the outside, Cockerill seems to have taken Edinburgh to at least par with Glasgow in terms of professionalism, but Jamie Bhatti seems to have loathed him.  

From what I remember at the time there was some French clubs looking at Townsend. So the SRU decided fast tracking him ws the best way to keep him.

Im sure it was so the SRU didnt have to buy him out a contract at a later date as he would have been off otherwise

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, printer said:

Very much this. I think only probably A Watson, Biggar (with Finn injured), Furlong and Itoje are certainties to start on Saturday. I think Gatland will go with the following, but I could be completely wrong. (I've put my different choices in brackets).

15 Williams

14 Watson

13 Daly (Harris)

12 Henshaw

11 Adams

10 Biggar

9 Murray (Price)

8 Conan (Curry)

7 Watson

6 Lawes

5 Jones

4 Itoje

3 Furlong

2 Cowan Dickie

1 Sutherland 

Gatland is a long-term admirer of Hogg so I think it would be a surprise if he didn't start. I'm not sure I'd call anyone a certainty to start. Maybe Itoje, probably Furlong, but with Gatland it wouldn't be beyond possible that Farrell starts at 10 or Williams and Adams on the wings.

One thing worth looking at is Gatland didn't give any of his intended starters more than 3 matches in the warm ups last time (and I think in Australia too). Guys like Daly have played a lot in the past few weeks. But maybe in the Covid-affected preparations that doesn't apply so much, and in the case of those playing out of the usual positions he may have been giving them game time.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

I'd be stunned if Hogg didn't start. He's a vital cog in a succesful Exeter side, has grown into his leadership roles, has improved his defensive game over the last year, and has a massive boot on him as well as being razor sharp in attack.

He's at the peak of his game, and frankly the only reason any 'expert' is picking Williams in front of him is simply because Hogg is Scottish and these fuckers believe  that ALL our players aren't good enough. 

[jjonjord]

I'd be stunned if Hogg didn't start. He's a vital cog in a succesful Exeter side, has grown into his leadership roles, has improved his defensive game over the last year, and has a massive boot on him as well as being razor sharp in attack.
He's at the peak of his game, and frankly the only reason any 'expert' is picking Williams in front of him is simply because Hogg is Scottish and these fuckers believe  that ALL our players aren't good enough. 

Reckon the main reason for Williams over Hogg is his ability under the high ball. Don't have a clue if it's just my perception, but I tend to have a lot more faith when Williams is underneath a kick. Hogg has the better ability ball in hand, but it might just come down to Gatlands gameplan I guess.

When the squad was picked, I was hoping for a back three of Williams, Adams, and Hogg. We haven't seen Williams playing anywhere but full back in the warm up games (I don't think?), but Gatland may have been keeping his powder dry on that one. Reckon Watson might get the nod ahead of one of the above anyway. Some very good options either way.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

That Dawson article is brilliant, fair play to him for boiling piss left right and centre. 

It's a really open selection which is fun, hard to predict more than a handful of positions. Think Harris has a good chance after his performances and the way it seems likely Gatland wants to use his centres. For all the Curry love in I think Watson has a very good chance for the 7 shirt. With a potential focus on forwards, particularly the 8, in the wide channels having a 7 who makes ground and ties in defenders in the centre of the field must be very attractive to him. AWJ being back is not only a lovely story (although it was very funny when it looked like he'd miss out) but could help Price who's looked the pick of the 9s on tour and on international form this year. Struggle to see how Sutherland isn't the strongest loosehead as well unless Gatland wants to see scrums going backwards. 

Biggar to fall apart and Finn to make a glorious return to steer the 2nd and 3rd test would be fun

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Reckon the main reason for Williams over Hogg is his ability under the high ball. Don't have a clue if it's just my perception, but I tend to have a lot more faith when Williams is underneath a kick. Hogg has the better ability ball in hand, but it might just come down to Gatlands gameplan I guess.

When the squad was picked, I was hoping for a back three of Williams, Adams, and Hogg. We haven't seen Williams playing anywhere but full back in the warm up games (I don't think?), but Gatland may have been keeping his powder dry on that one. Reckon Watson might get the nod ahead of one of the above anyway. Some very good options either way.

Williams lasted 10 mins and in that time dropped a high ball, you do know the irish/Welsh media & pundits create this perception.
I'm 100% sure that Hogg, if fit, starts.

[GordonS]

Anyone got a Times account and willing to share the contents of Barclay's article about Cockerill?

 

[peasy23]

Great news for Glasgow that Zander Fagerson has signed an extended deal.

[Snobot]

2 hours ago, GordonS said:

Anyone got a Times account and willing to share the contents of Barclay's article about Cockerill?

 

Here you go. Register and get a couple of free articles a month and you don’t pay a thing

Spoiler

John Barclay: ‘Cockers was an agent of positive change at the start, but he was a malign presence thereafter’

Cockerill’s old-school approach worked at first but eventually turned the club against him

ROSS/PARKER/SNS GROUP

It has to be said that Cockers made some positive changes when he came into the job four years ago. At that time Edinburgh were seen as listless, rudderless and with a soft underbelly. There was a sense of complacency about the club, with players seemingly believing that playing professional rugby was enough and that winning was optional. There was no sense of common purpose with a lacklustre approach to standards.

My two seasons under Cockers were a tough experience. A snapped achilles didn’t help, but my biggest frustration was not being able or allowed to contribute more to the team or put my experience — I had been a pro for more than 13 years when I joined — to good use. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I will be the first to admit it. But even during my brief time, the feeling of unrest and of an unsustainable environment was clear.

Cockers is an old-school coach, and you cannot help but admire his tenacity to stick to what he knows. “This is how we play and I won’t apologise for it” was the party line. He shouts, he rages, which is fine, if it is serving a greater intention. Embarrassing players before their peers never serves a team well however. Demanding total control — of everything — has the same effect. His eye for detail and his unrelenting focus on them is why he makes a difference at clubs. However this positive when overplayed turns into a vice.

Players need to drive the team with coaches guiding from the sides. Leaders should make leaders, creating a succession of leaders for the future, a continuity plan leaving a legacy of leaders. In this autocratic environment, I found little evidence of this. Decisions on the pitch were communicated from the sidelines. Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players.

There are times when team meetings should be tense and the riot act needs reading. This became the norm however and team meetings were far from pleasant affairs with players constantly reminded that they had failed, not a healthy landscape for the exchanges of ideas that characterises many successful teams.

When problems occurred in games, as was the norm, we would look to the sidelines for answers. The environment he created did not allow players to read a situation, take a game by the scruff of the neck, make bold and brave decisions and drive a team on. Players (who showed themselves to be perfectly adaptable playing for Scotland) had no option but to fall in line when the bombs were going off and nobody stuck their head above the parapet for fear of being ripped to shreds the following Monday.

In modern times rugby clubs have evolved like most professional sports and a more integrated/collegiate approach is more common. A shared leadership model is the norm with a flatter hierarchy. Modern coaches seeing the value of the environment and the greater picture; creating a common goal and higher purpose empowers a team, strengthening the bonds within. Coaches learn from players and vice versa. Players are no longer used to — and no longer accepting of — being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not. Players are involved throughout. Senior player groups work with coaches.

Under Cockers, Edinburgh developed a style based on being tough up front, well disciplined and physical. He undoubtedly did this, making Edinburgh a tough team to beat.

I joined Edinburgh off the back of playing against them for Scarlets and recognising just how much the team had improved in their physicality and discipline alone. It worked against some teams and it brought some respect, but it was inflexible and was snail paced to evolve. Against bigger sides that plan A was found out and there was no plan B to turn to. Edinburgh’s record in knockout games under Cockers was terrible.

It was no surprise that rumours of player unrest began to trickle out last season. Cockers had arguably lost the dressing room years before. Young players who had grown up dreaming of playing professional rugby faced a grim reality with Cockers. Some thrived under it; players that enjoyed the hard line approach. Some players need an arm around them at their lowest ebbs. That arm was never going to be forthcoming.

Darge has been reborn since his move to Glasgow

ALAN HARVEY/SNS GROUP

A few departed, disillusioned, with no plan ever to play rugby again. Promising players were made to feel peripheral. Rory Darge hardly got a look-in under Cockers and has been sensational since his move to Glasgow. Callum Hunter-Hill was another who was given little game time but he has since become a regular starter with Saracens. Rory Sutherland was languishing in the ranks of amateur rugby but 18 months ago. Gregor Townsend saw his potential, trusted him and empowered him to go and play. Now look where he is.

I actually feel very positive about Edinburgh’s prospects post-Cockerill. The club has some outstanding players — a back row of Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie and Bill Mata would be the envy of any club — and they will feel invigorated and energised by the appointment of a new coach. In their new ground they will become a fine team to watch.

Hopefully, some of the habits he instilled will remain, and the foundations he laid are solid; the players will continue to value internal discipline creating an environment where high standards are demanded, whilst always understanding that mistakes are part of the game.

Cockers insisted on high standards and professionalism and many of Edinburgh’s players will feel the benefit of playing under him for years to come.

This feels like a second chance for some players. Rugby careers are short and it is important to ensure you squeeze every drop of enjoyment out of it along the way. Of course there are hard spells, and drops in form, and teams struggle. But it’s still meant to be fun. And for too many years Edinburgh hasn’t been a fun place to work.

 

[Detournement]

An unexpected Saffa team.

Maherlbe and Kitsoff on the bench rather than starting props is an odd one. As is Kwagga Smith at 8. 

I wonder if they will make any 'forced' changes nearer KO?

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Snobot said:

Here you go. Register and get a couple of free articles a month and you don’t pay a thing

  Reveal hidden contents

John Barclay: ‘Cockers was an agent of positive change at the start, but he was a malign presence thereafter’

Cockerill’s old-school approach worked at first but eventually turned the club against him

ROSS/PARKER/SNS GROUP

It has to be said that Cockers made some positive changes when he came into the job four years ago. At that time Edinburgh were seen as listless, rudderless and with a soft underbelly. There was a sense of complacency about the club, with players seemingly believing that playing professional rugby was enough and that winning was optional. There was no sense of common purpose with a lacklustre approach to standards.

My two seasons under Cockers were a tough experience. A snapped achilles didn’t help, but my biggest frustration was not being able or allowed to contribute more to the team or put my experience — I had been a pro for more than 13 years when I joined — to good use. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I will be the first to admit it. But even during my brief time, the feeling of unrest and of an unsustainable environment was clear.

Cockers is an old-school coach, and you cannot help but admire his tenacity to stick to what he knows. “This is how we play and I won’t apologise for it” was the party line. He shouts, he rages, which is fine, if it is serving a greater intention. Embarrassing players before their peers never serves a team well however. Demanding total control — of everything — has the same effect. His eye for detail and his unrelenting focus on them is why he makes a difference at clubs. However this positive when overplayed turns into a vice.

Players need to drive the team with coaches guiding from the sides. Leaders should make leaders, creating a succession of leaders for the future, a continuity plan leaving a legacy of leaders. In this autocratic environment, I found little evidence of this. Decisions on the pitch were communicated from the sidelines. Edinburgh’s biggest issue during the brief time I was there revolved around an inability to solve problems on the pitch, a direct consequence of his refusal to trust the players.

There are times when team meetings should be tense and the riot act needs reading. This became the norm however and team meetings were far from pleasant affairs with players constantly reminded that they had failed, not a healthy landscape for the exchanges of ideas that characterises many successful teams.

When problems occurred in games, as was the norm, we would look to the sidelines for answers. The environment he created did not allow players to read a situation, take a game by the scruff of the neck, make bold and brave decisions and drive a team on. Players (who showed themselves to be perfectly adaptable playing for Scotland) had no option but to fall in line when the bombs were going off and nobody stuck their head above the parapet for fear of being ripped to shreds the following Monday.

In modern times rugby clubs have evolved like most professional sports and a more integrated/collegiate approach is more common. A shared leadership model is the norm with a flatter hierarchy. Modern coaches seeing the value of the environment and the greater picture; creating a common goal and higher purpose empowers a team, strengthening the bonds within. Coaches learn from players and vice versa. Players are no longer used to — and no longer accepting of — being shouted at, told what to do and then reviewed and told if they succeeded or not. Players are involved throughout. Senior player groups work with coaches.

Under Cockers, Edinburgh developed a style based on being tough up front, well disciplined and physical. He undoubtedly did this, making Edinburgh a tough team to beat.

I joined Edinburgh off the back of playing against them for Scarlets and recognising just how much the team had improved in their physicality and discipline alone. It worked against some teams and it brought some respect, but it was inflexible and was snail paced to evolve. Against bigger sides that plan A was found out and there was no plan B to turn to. Edinburgh’s record in knockout games under Cockers was terrible.

It was no surprise that rumours of player unrest began to trickle out last season. Cockers had arguably lost the dressing room years before. Young players who had grown up dreaming of playing professional rugby faced a grim reality with Cockers. Some thrived under it; players that enjoyed the hard line approach. Some players need an arm around them at their lowest ebbs. That arm was never going to be forthcoming.

Darge has been reborn since his move to Glasgow

ALAN HARVEY/SNS GROUP

A few departed, disillusioned, with no plan ever to play rugby again. Promising players were made to feel peripheral. Rory Darge hardly got a look-in under Cockers and has been sensational since his move to Glasgow. Callum Hunter-Hill was another who was given little game time but he has since become a regular starter with Saracens. Rory Sutherland was languishing in the ranks of amateur rugby but 18 months ago. Gregor Townsend saw his potential, trusted him and empowered him to go and play. Now look where he is.

I actually feel very positive about Edinburgh’s prospects post-Cockerill. The club has some outstanding players — a back row of Hamish Watson, Jamie Ritchie and Bill Mata would be the envy of any club — and they will feel invigorated and energised by the appointment of a new coach. In their new ground they will become a fine team to watch.

Hopefully, some of the habits he instilled will remain, and the foundations he laid are solid; the players will continue to value internal discipline creating an environment where high standards are demanded, whilst always understanding that mistakes are part of the game.

Cockers insisted on high standards and professionalism and many of Edinburgh’s players will feel the benefit of playing under him for years to come.

This feels like a second chance for some players. Rugby careers are short and it is important to ensure you squeeze every drop of enjoyment out of it along the way. Of course there are hard spells, and drops in form, and teams struggle. But it’s still meant to be fun. And for too many years Edinburgh hasn’t been a fun place to work.

 

Thank you sir. I thought registering meant a trial subscription thingy, my mistake.

Very interesting thoughts from Barclay. It's a shame that Cockerill couldn't adapt his approach as all the best coaches do, but I guess that's just who he is. The squad needed a boot up the arse in that first season but once they were getting good results he needed to soften. They might be in a good place for someone like Mike Blair to take over.

[GordonS]

The Times reporting that Hogg, Duhan and Price all starting, with Mish and Sutherland on the bench.

LCD at hooker, Daly at 13 and Conan at 8.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-irish-lions-ali-price-picked-at-scrum-half-with-elliot-daly-at-13-but-no-starting-place-for-owen-farrell-ngcwgd7kn 

[GAD]

1 minute ago, GordonS said:

The Times reporting that Hogg, Duhan and Price all starting, with Mish and Sutherland on the bench.

LCD at hooker, Daly at 13 and Conan at 8.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-irish-lions-ali-price-picked-at-scrum-half-with-elliot-daly-at-13-but-no-starting-place-for-owen-farrell-ngcwgd7kn 

Was just coming on to post that. 5 Scots in the test 23 would be great stuff, providing we win of course! Harris a bit unlucky but I can see the thinking behind Daly playing, and Daly hasn't been bad.

Apparently the team announcement has been brought forward to tomorrow morning, so I'm guessing there is a good bit in this.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

The full squad

Backs: Hogg; A Watson, E Daly, R Henshaw, D van der Merwe; D Biggar, A Price;

Forwards: W Jones, L Cowan-Dickie, T Furlong, A W Jones (c), M Itoje, C Lawes, T Curry, J Conan.

Replacements K Owens, R Sutherland, K Sinckler, T Beirne, H Watson, I Henderson, C Murray, O Farrell.

6-2 split on the bench.

[GordonS]

17 minutes ago, GAD said:

Was just coming on to post that. 5 Scots in the test 23 would be great stuff, providing we win of course! Harris a bit unlucky but I can see the thinking behind Daly playing, and Daly hasn't been bad.

Apparently the team announcement has been brought forward to tomorrow morning, so I'm guessing there is a good bit in this.

They do seem to be confidently reporting something if it's only a rumour.

Harris has been great but he's a different type of player from Daly and if that's how Gatland wants to play the game then fair enough. It does suggest it might be fairly expansive.

I've really liked Daly at 13 - and it's further evidence of how much better a manager Gatland is than Eddie Jones (see also Simmonds).

4 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The full squad

Backs: Hogg; A Watson, E Daly, R Henshaw, D van der Merwe; D Biggar, A Price;

Forwards: W Jones, L Cowan-Dickie, T Furlong, A W Jones (c), M Itoje, C Lawes, T Curry, J Conan.

Replacements K Owens, R Sutherland, K Sinckler, T Beirne, H Watson, I Henderson, C Murray, O Farrell.

6-2 split on the bench.

Really chuffed to see Ali Price starting. Murray was obviously first choice scrum half when the squad was picked, and when he was named captain, so Price has done really well to grab his opportunity. 

Surprising not to see Williams in the 23, but that's Lions rugby for you.

I wish I could make a case for Mish in that back row, but they're all top players. His lack of flexibility was maybe his downfall here, but he'll be a bundle of demented energy off the bench.

And is Jamie George injured? I would have thought he was in front of Ken Owens in the queue. 

[Detournement]

I read a thing a while ago about the All Blacks tactics against the Boks being basically stretch them outside as much as possible. If the Lions get quick ball and Daly, Hogg and Duhan are all in the outside channels it is going to put the Bok drift defence under massive pressure.

To start with I though Duhan had no chance but even against modest opposition it was clear that his ability to beat the first man is a huge point of difference. If he gets some space to do his stuff he will be a proper superstar by Sunday morning and probably regretting signing for Worcester!