Rugby Union

[Detournement]

Cockerill isn't the man for Scotland.

He only knows one style of rugby. A Saffer or Kiwi please.

Edited February 8, 2020 by Detournement

[Distant Doonhamer]

4 hours ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

Followed up by a similarly seething interview from Jones.

No surprise.   Jones is an awful loser and an even worse winner. An absolute cvnt of a man

[flyingscot]

Sounds positive. As I said earlier Toony is going to survive a poor campaign. 

As shite as Italy are, we're hardly sparkling in Rome.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

Can't be many left defending Townsend after this. Always two steps back for every one forward. No carrying game and dreadful scrum last year or two, replace that with non functioning lineout, no clue at the breakdown and an ability to fire the back line in this. 

More worryingly it's now been about two years since a Townsend team went out looking like they had the confidence to take responsibility and be creative. Most of the time  they don't look like they have a clear gameplan to execute either. 

Sad to see by far our best generation of my lifetime wasted like this 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Genuine Hibs Fan
Spelling

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

Just realised this seems premature and looks a wee bit like jumping the gun. But those are the two best chances we've had to beat Ireland and England, including times that we have done so, in years

[John Lambies Doos]

[/url] Sounds positive. As I said earlier Toony is going to survive a poor campaign. 
As shite as Italy are, we're hardly sparkling in Rome.

Paywall shite, can anyone post full story?

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

Brainless rugby, Scotland. John Lacey is a c**t.

[Detournement]

Well it's clear that he won't play for Townsend again and in the potential future beyond GT it will be on his own terms.

Townsend comes out that looking very bad. If your most important player tells you he's thinking about quitting you have to put an arm round whether you like it or not. That's why you get paid big bucks. 

[Jaggy Snake]

There's nothing particularly shocking in the Sunday Times article (below).

Finn's a bit of a prima donna who wants to be loved, and Townsend isn't interested in doing that but still should have handled it better.

He does seem to acknowledge it was other players who told him to stop drinking and some weren't impressed, which probably made it easier for Townsend to leave him out.

Spoiler

Finn Russell gives his version of events about 'that night' and start of deterioration of his relationship with Townsend

Finn Russell keeps returning to the point that this didn’t happen overnight. That what went down in the Scotland team hotel on a Sunday evening three weeks ago was more a tipping point than a flashpoint. The moment when a hitherto private conflict burst noisily and messily into public view.

Russell disputes the SRU’s drip-fed narrative of events that night, saying his “late-night drinking session” was actually a handful of beers and an 11pm finish. But what he really wants to talk about, and for people to understand, is what happened in the months, even years beforehand. If he doesn’t feel he owes anyone an apology, he does want to offer an explanation.

It starts – and, for now at least, ends – with Gregor Townsend and the pair’s apparent inability to communicate. Listening to Russell detail how as far back as last year’s Six Nations he was questioning whether he could go on in the Scotland set-up, it’s clear things have been far from great for a long time between head coach and playmaker.

Russell’s views on the environment have further crystallised in the season and a half he has spent in Paris with Racing 92, a club where players are expected to take a lead in determining the approach on and off the pitch, and are “trusted to spend their own time doing what works for them”. The Scotland set-up Russell describes sounds highly controlled and comparatively joyless, while the tale of a lack of understanding between him and the boss makes for mournful listening for anyone who sees the good in both.

“Eight years I’ve had him as a coach, and I don’t really know him at all,” says Russell. “We’ve not got a personal relationship. With Racing, last year I couldn’t speak much to the coaches because my French wasn’t that good, but this year with [Irish backs and attack coach] Mike [Prendergast] I get on really well, I chat to him a lot and I’ve spoken to him a lot about this situation. It’s the same with Toto [head coach Laurent Travers] and [director of rugby] Yannick Nyanga.

“It’s a much more personal relationship. It’s like it was with Scotland under Vern [Cotter, Townsend’s predecessor]. When we’re training and playing, they’re my coaches, but with that we can have a good, honest chat and blether away like you would with family and friends. They treat you like an adult. After a game, they understand it’s your time to do what you need to. If you start coming in late for training or going out during the week, that’s when it’s a problem. This whole situation with Scotland has been made out to be about me wanting to have a drink, when in actual fact, it’s about control, respect and trust, on and off the pitch.

“I want the best for Scotland and so I’ve questioned the environment to try and make it better. We [him and Townsend] have clashed quite a lot, him saying one thing and me saying another. It’s come to a point where I’m saying, ‘you can be you and I’m going to be me. That’s how this relationship is going to be.’ Well, it’s not really a relationship.”

Russell says he was at a low ebb after last year’s Six Nations, which ended with the first public sign of a rift as he and Townsend had an “argument” in the Twickenham dressing rooms at half-time against England. Russell, who wanted Scotland to kick the ball less and run it more, was on fire in the second period as Scotland went from 31-7 down at the break to come within seconds of an historic win.

The 27-year-old says that his attempts to input into the team’s tactical approach are met with the same non-plussed response as his observations about the environment. He is adamant he is not alone in having concerns on each front, but concedes he has greater freedom to speak his mind when his club employment lies outside Murrayfield.

“A lot our game plan last year revolved around stats and kicking, and for me that’s not rugby. Just play the game,” he says. “Under Vern, it was a very simple game plan but you could play anything off it. Some of the [Scotland] meetings last year, it was like, ‘what are actually trying to do here?’ It’s hard for the other boys to say anything. They’re contracted to the SRU. I know that’s also been the case [with what’s been said publicly] in the last couple of weeks. They’ve been building up to games, and [team] media [activity] these days is so controlled.”

Russell says he spoke to Townsend in the weeks before the start of the Six Nations camp and made it clear he still had doubts about his continued involvement. But after playing for Racing in a Champions Cup match against Saracens at Allianz Park, he took an evening flight from Luton to Edinburgh with his family and Sarries’ Sean Maitland, arriving in the nearby team hotel just before 9pm. The home-based contingent were already in camp, having played the day before.

Russell is part of Scotland’s leadership group, but in his absence the other members had apparently agreed that after a game, players would be allowed two beers each and that there would be a team night out after the Calcutta Cup match. Russell had “two beers with dinner” and “ordered another one”, which is said not to have sat well with other senior players.

“The players at dinner were like, ‘no more drinking’. These are guys I know well, so I said, ‘what’s the problem, I’ve just played, I just want a couple of beers’ and they said that’s what the leaders had agreed. I’m part of the leaders group, but they’d had the meeting before I got there. I’d not had a say. So for me, straight away, it was set up pretty poorly.

“It refreshed all the memories about the environment. I’ve just played a game, my 13th in a row, flown straight up and it’s the exact same. I’ve spoken to Gregor two weeks beforehand to tell him how I was feeling and not heard back for 10 days. What’s going on? It’s also the case that a night out after England is fine for the boys employed by the SRU who will have that next week off, but me and some of the other boys will be back to play for our clubs. I know it can’t be changed for one person, but at least if we get a say at the time, we can come to an agreement. Again, though, it’s not about drink, it’s about the whole environment.”

Russell says he phoned home at 10pm and left the hotel at around 11.30pm and was driven by his parents to the family home in Bridge of Allan. If there is regret around his actions, it is most obvious when he speaks about missing a team meeting in Edinburgh the next morning. He returned to camp that night for a planned meeting with Townsend, during which he was told he would not be considered for selection against Ireland on account of his “breach of team protocol” on the Sunday.

“For me and Gregor, it was a decent enough chat, I’ve never spoken to him properly like that before. But still I felt we were going round in circles. I’m like, ‘I’m trying to tell you what I’m thinking, and we just go round again. You need to listen to me.’ I don’t really feel I get that from Gregor.”

Townsend arranged for him to see a psychologist on the Tuesday. For Russell, the message was that his Scotland bosses believe he has an alcohol problem. “The psychologist understood what I was saying about me going out once a week after a game. He said, ‘you’re not on the front of newspapers, you’re not overweight, you’re performing well’. He didn’t see any issue. I’d had pretty much the same conversation with Gregor on the Monday night, and he said, ‘there must be something deeper inside, something you’re not telling us yet.’ I’m like, ‘what do you want me to say for you to be satisfied, rather than listening to what I’m saying?’” The “official” narrative is that Russell then chose not to assist preparations for Dublin in favour of returning to France, where he helped Racing win in Castres on Saturday January 25.

“On the Wednesday morning, Gregor sent me a text saying, ‘if you want to go back to Racing, you are free to do that from today. Let me know if you decide to go back.’ For me, that text was, ‘you’re free to do what you want.’ But from then, it’s all been, ‘Finn’s left camp to go back to Racing, Finn’s this, Finn’s that’ when I’d said to Gregor, ‘if you want me here, I’m here. If you don’t, that [France] is where I need to be.’ The way this has all been spun, I’m the guy who left camp, I’m the guy who had the late night drinking session, I’m the guy who’s done this and that. It could have been sorted in-house. I didn’t turn up on the Monday and that was my choice, but since then it’s been just like, ‘see you later Finn’.”

Russell spent part of the Ireland week on holiday in Dubai, before watching the game in Paris. From Thursday January 23 until late last Sunday he says he had no contact from Townsend or the SRU. Townsend called last Sunday night. “He just said he wasn’t changing anything in the squad for the England week. I didn’t really say much. The thing I said to Ali [Price, his close friend and former flatmate] was, ‘make sure the boys know it’s not anything to do with them. I’m not turning my back on my country or the boys, this is a personal thing between me and Gregor. I want to be with them. But just now it’s not really possible for me to be involved.’”

I ask about the countless thousands who would crawl over broken glass to play for Scotland regardless of the coach. “I need to do what makes me happy and makes me play my best rugby. People can see the scenario as they want. But I need to do this for myself. It’s over a year I’ve been doing it for the country and for the fans. Before the last Six Nations, I was thinking the same. This is about me being honest and staying true to myself.

“People might not think it’s the right thing to do, but for me I believe it is. I believe we need change, it needs to move in a different route. We’re tracking along a road and it’s not been working for us, and it’s especially not been working for me.”

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Jaggy Snake

[Gianfranco]

To be a manager you’ve got to have good communication and people skills which from that is very much lacking in Toony.

Finn’s also acting like a wee guy.

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

Looks like we're back to the days of the wooden spoon game against Italy, with the other 4 'big' countries ignoring us and playing real games for the championship and/or grand slam.

A f*cking joke (the situation, and us). 

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Looks like we're back to the days of the wooden spoon game against Italy, with the other 4 'big' countries ignoring us and playing real games for the championship and/or grand slam.
A f*cking joke (the situation, and us). 
 

I think we will beat France but yes above post pretty much spot on.
For it to be even considered a semi successful 6N we have to win our last 3 games including Cardiff

[Savage Henry]

To be a manager you’ve got to have good communication and people skills which from that is very much lacking in Toony.

Finn’s also acting like a wee guy.

The gripe about the senior players setting the drinking rules in his absence is pretty damning on Russell. Otherwise I tend to side with him.

[John Lambies Doos]

To be a manager you’ve got to have good communication and people skills which from that is very much lacking in Toony.

Finn’s also acting like a wee guy.

If correct and FR has never had a proper conversation with GT and decisions are decided by text between both then it's toxic.
FR says that the team struggle to understand GTs tactics.... Well that's evident....

[AngusTheBull]

Quite punchy from Finn there. As has been said I can’t see him playing for Scotland again while Townsend is in charge. 

It’s not a secret that Townsend isn’t a fan of rugby’s drinking culture. And while this particular issue does appear to have been a player-led decision, you get the sense it’s a case of the straw which broke the camels back.

I’d listened to a podcast during the week in which they’d been told by a former player (not named) that Townsend was a great coach, but the worst man-manager he’d had in his career. It’s certainly interesting that Russell feels they have no relationship at all after 8 years working together. Especially given some of the success (both at club and international level) they have had during that time.

[John Lambies Doos]

Quite punchy from Finn there. As has been said I can’t see him playing for Scotland again while Townsend is in charge. 
It’s not a secret that Townsend isn’t a fan of rugby’s drinking culture. And while this particular issue does appear to have been a player-led decision, you get the sense it’s a case of the straw which broke the camels back.
I’d listened to a podcast during the week in which they’d been told by a former player (not named) that Townsend was a great coach, but the worst man-manager he’d had in his career. It’s certainly interesting that Russell feels they have no relationship at all after 8 years working together. Especially given some of the success (both at club and international level) they have had during that time.

Guess it's moot now because Townsend is gonzo

[AngusTheBull]

2 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

9 minutes ago, AngusTheBull said:

Quite punchy from Finn there. As has been said I can’t see him playing for Scotland again while Townsend is in charge. 
It’s not a secret that Townsend isn’t a fan of rugby’s drinking culture. And while this particular issue does appear to have been a player-led decision, you get the sense it’s a case of the straw which broke the camels back.
I’d listened to a podcast during the week in which they’d been told by a former player (not named) that Townsend was a great coach, but the worst man-manager he’d had in his career. It’s certainly interesting that Russell feels they have no relationship at all after 8 years working together. Especially given some of the success (both at club and international level) they have had during that time.

Guess it's moot now because Townsend is gonzo

It’s certainly looking that way.

 

I think the most frustrating thing so far is that we easily could have won both games. Yesterday was always going to be a case of whoever got a try first (or at all) and as blunt as we were, Hogg cock-up aside they didn’t look like scoring either. 

A fairly unimpressive Ireland were comfortable against Wales yesterday who don’t look particularly good - we certainly gave them a tougher game. But our record in Cardiff is so bad in recent times it’s hard to ever be optimistic going there.

[come on shire]

The positives: the scrum was fairly solid and the defence was excellent.

However, our attack was blunt compared to Dublin. Storm Ciara meant we played England at their own physical, grinding game. We didn't deal with that. England just managed us. We got many dangerous line outs due to England kicking out on the full but they were awful. Whoever coaches the line outs needs their arse kicked.

Steve Tandy and Pieter de Villiers are good additions but working with a head coach with no Plan B. Captaining a star player doesn't work. Just let them score and create tries and let a grounded player be captain. You'd never see Finn as captain or Niko as Glasgow captain. He's struggling with the responsibility as he's made a 2nd howler 2 games in a row. Last time he was captain we lost at the USA.

We need 3 wins. Not impossible but we must improve. If not then Toony's surely away. However, let's not criticise the kick with 20secs left. That's Toony's instruction. After so many phases he demands the ball be kicked as per his favoured kicking tactics.

Edited February 9, 2020 by come on shire

[ajwffc]

Reading the interview with Finn. It looks to me that his club has had a lot of say in what has happened and what he said in the interview. Also did he expect to be made captain instead of Hogg and this hasn't helped?

[Salvo Montalbano]

I wondered that about the captaincy. It's a strange situation that Finn and Gregor have no relationship despite all their time together but there are some managers and coaches in all sports who are like that. Maybe Toony should have an approachable assistant or team manager (as the Lions do) who can act as a go between or something?