Independence For Scotland

[Michael W]

Although The Gray Ghost has argued for independence on here, and taken manys a mouthful of abuse for it, in fact, he would actual prefer to go down the more powers route. The Gray Ghost is of the opinion that independence would best be achieved a step at a time, so gradually increase our powers, get used to them, let a number of different politicians experience power.

Its important to realise that our parliment is still young. For almost its entire lifespan, the same people were in control (several leaders of each party, but the msps are the same). Now we have 3 parties who have experience of being in power, and these parties have very different aims. This can only be good for the state of the Scottish political system, and will improve the quality of MSP. With better MSPs, more experience of government, and a gradual increase in powers, we can gradually build ourselves up. Eventually, in a good few years from now, we could look at full independence, but for now we should look at becoming more independent within the UK, and laying the groundwork for progression.

Thats the honest opinion of The Gray Ghost. He doesnt want independence to happen at once, but that said, he would vote for independence if a referendum was called, because he doesnt know when he might get another chance to do so. Either way, The Gray Ghost cant see any way back, To nick material from another poster, Pandoras box has slowly been eased open.

The one problem with this is that the much wanked over oil may be gone in that time.

Giving more powers to the SP would certainly be a step towards independence in my view. One thing I would say (I've said this several times before and still not been given an answer), why should the referendum bill be put through in Scotland? Constitutional affairs are outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Any such debate should take place in London IMO.

The saddest point of all is that labour are digging the grave of the union with their own hands here. They are a useless, out of touch with reality, incompetent shower of fools. They only have themselves to blame.

[bluetooner]

You mean you don't know ? You slate what is happening here and you admit to doing it in complete ignorance ? You have a brass neck !

For your information there is plenty happening from the feezing of council tax, to the reduction in small business rates, to free prescriptions, to getting rid of Labour quangos.

And there are still 3 more glorious years to clear up more of the mess the country was in. B)

THe fact i don't know is why i have been asking on here for months now. I have been told that they have stopped tolls on bridges, something i don't agree with. Other than that how have i been "slating what is happening?"

It seems to me that there are lots of reductions in people having to pay for things, so if that continues where is the government going to get the money to keep services the way they are? They are all small, temporary things that get voters happy, but mean f**k all in reality.

[xbl]

The one problem with this is that the much wanked over oil may be gone in that time.

Giving more powers to the SP would certainly be a step towards independence in my view. One thing I would say (I've said this several times before and still not been given an answer), why should the referendum bill be put through in Scotland? Constitutional affairs are outwith the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Any such debate should take place in London IMO.

The saddest point of all is that labour are digging the grave of the union with their own hands here. They are a useless, out of touch with reality, incompetent shower of fools. They only have themselves to blame.

Well, The Gray Ghost would like to draw parallels with the proposed European Constitution referendum. Why should only Britain vote on whether we accept the constitution? Shouldnt the whole of Europe have a say on whether we accept it? After all it affects them too. Nonsense no?

Furthermore, Scottish issues (whether devolved or not) should be discussed in the SP, whether or not they have the power to change anything. The Gray Ghost believes the legal position (and he could be wrong) is that the Scottish Parliment have the power to call a referendum and all that, but the UK Govt dont have to accept its results. They are quite entitled to ignore the results.

Finally, The Gray Ghost is sick of oil being brought into this over and over. No disrespect, given a lack of knowledge of your political opinions, but unionists seem to talk about oil far more than any pro independence person that The Gray Ghost has ever heard! Oil is not a factor in The Gray Ghosts mind. The Gray Ghost would be in favour of a gradual path to independence even if the oil was totally gone already, and he suspects that many other pro independence folk are the same.

[Michael W]

Well, The Gray Ghost would like to draw parallels with the proposed European Constitution referendum. Why should only Britain vote on whether we accept the constitution? Shouldnt the whole of Europe have a say on whether we accept it? After all it affects them too. Nonsense no?

Furthermore, Scottish issues (whether devolved or not) should be discussed in the SP, whether or not they have the power to change anything. The Gray Ghost believes the legal position (and he could be wrong) is that the Scottish Parliment have the power to call a referendum and all that, but the UK Govt dont have to accept its results. They are quite entitled to ignore the results.

Finally, The Gray Ghost is sick of oil being brought into this over and over. No disrespect, given a lack of knowledge of your political opinions, but unionists seem to talk about oil far more than any pro independence person that The Gray Ghost has ever heard! Oil is not a factor in The Gray Ghosts mind. The Gray Ghost would be in favour of a gradual path to independence even if the oil was totally gone already, and he suspects that many other pro independence folk are the same.

I'm glad to see you don't buy into the oil nonsense.

Yes, the Scottish parliament probably does have the power to call a debate, I just think that this would be far better done at Westminster. They have no legislative power over the issue though, which surely makes it a waste of time? I would be grateful for the government to get on with the job they were elected to do, rather than call referendums on independence etc. How I would laugh if an independence bill was struck down though.

I like your parallels with the EU Constitution, because I feel they favour my argument more than yours. I agree that every country should have a vote on it, but adapt this to our situation, and it would appear there has been quite a clear disregard for what the rest of Britain thinks.

To my mind, Salmond appears to think that it's up to us if we leave the union or not. Clearly it isn't up to us, we have no power over these matters.

Anyway, I'm off now as I'm knackered. I will be back B)

[finnersaintee]

I'm glad to see you don't buy into the oil nonsense.

Yes, the Scottish parliament probably does have the power to call a debate, I just think that this would be far better done at Westminster. They have no legislative power over the issue though, which surely makes it a waste of time? I would be grateful for the government to get on with the job they were elected to do, rather than call referendums on independence etc. How I would laugh if an independence bill was struck down though.

I like your parallels with the EU Constitution, because I feel they favour my argument more than yours. I agree that every country should have a vote on it, but adapt this to our situation, and it would appear there has been quite a clear disregard for what the rest of Britain thinks.

To my mind, Salmond appears to think that it's up to us if we leave the union or not. Clearly it isn't up to us, we have no power over these matters.

Anyway, I'm off now as I'm knackered. I will be back B)

if the scottish people want independence then who's to stop them?

[bluetooner]

if the scottish people want independence then who's to stop them?

Westminster. Unless you are going to stockpile big long sharp sticks and put on your facepaints.

[Savage Henry]

if the scottish people want independence then who's to stop them?

Every poll taken, ever, suggests that they don't, and probably won't in any of our lifetimes. Irrespective of how you feel about the issue, to suggest that it will come to a head, so to speak, any time soon is fanciful.

Apropos of nothing, the Gray Ghost is getting tiring, very quickly.

[Reina]

Every poll taken, ever, suggests that they don't, and probably won't in any of our lifetimes. Irrespective of how you feel about the issue, to suggest that it will come to a head, so to speak, any time soon is fanciful.

Apart from this one, it would appear... A stunningly accurate General Nonsense poll.

</sarcasm>

[Scary Bear]

But these kids deserve help too. If they can get through to even one 'bad egg' then it's been worth it, in my opinion.

So, where I work, the nearest school to ours is 15 miles away. If a kid is excluded from our school, he/she will go there. Public transport is non existent, kids cannot drive themselves there, parents of kids who tend to be excluded tend not to care....how do you propose that these kids get an education?

What would be your idea of a good use of money? Change has to come from the Government before local authorities can do anything with changing budgets.

I don't mean to sound patronising, but it's pretty clear to me that you don't come from an education background and don't know about all of the laws etc that schools must follow.

True. I don't come from an education background. The 'education background' people do usually come across as bleeding hearts.

Dealing with your points:

1. When referring to social workers costs, I was really meaning for adults rather than children of school age. However, if the money spent on helping these kids doesn't get results in the majority of case, then it's a waste of money.

2. Again, shouldn't be the problem of the local council. If they get excluded, then tough, their parents can deal with them. Make them take a year out and start from a year back the following year. Getting them a taxi every day to a new school where they can further their career as f**k-ups and piss off more pupils isn't a great idea.

3. If change has to come from government then they should make those changes. I'm actually quite glad the tories will be getting in again.

In short, i've been getting brain washed by the tory free papers for too long since uni days and I have went from left of centre to quite right of centre. Hang em high and give them nothing.

[H_B]

On a similar line, you could argue that P'n'B posters are mainly male, and therefore more likely to support independence, or you could argue that a lot of P'n'B posters are under 18, and therefore more likely to support Scottish independence.

Very true.

It would be interesting if a dummy referendum took place, where everyone in Scotland of voting age got a say.

I think it would be telling to break down the choices by geography and particularly income.

[Gaz]

Would you be saying the same if the P'n'B masses were expressing a desire to return to Westminster rule, Gaz?

Yes, I would.

Or do you only rubbish polls when you disagree with their result?

No, I don't.

Can you explain why you consider this poll to be less representative than (say) a GMTV poll where people can phone in multiple votes?

I don't pay particular attention to GMTV-style polls either.

I wouldn't hesitate in saying that this messageboard is made up of over 80% working class males in Scotland between the ages of 15 and 35. It's hardly representative of a cross-section of our society.

[H_B]

Yes, I would.

I'm sure there was a poll linked earlier in this thread that suggested support for Independence had actually gone down.

The Guardian or Telegraph or something.

[Guest Ron Burgundy]

Excellent stuff folks.....now the crux of the matter.

Who in their right mind (that excludes you Gay Ghost) actually in their heart of hearts believes Alex Salmond wants a referendum?

I agree he is no fool, he's a fat w****r but no fool.

Given that he is not a fool, he and his advisors must take heed of opinion polls as a means of measuring success of current policies and the dislike of others.

It has been patently clear for any number of years and even more so recently that at it's very top end 40% want independence and at it's very bottom end it is 19%.

That is simply not enough in any mans book and only a complete and uttter fool would call for a referendum that they cannot win.

In fact it's widely known that referndum are only used when you know you are going to win them.

The simple fact of the matter is that Salmond expected to get a few years to govern and have his moment in the sun. This would have been extended in 2011 as he would have used the expected unionists parties blocking of the referendum as a cheap tool to whip up the passions of the more simple amongst us and win another term in office for his vile mob of nationalist filth.

Salmond has been a very quiet man over the past few days and no doubt some will say "ahhh he's so clever letting them implode amongst themselves"...I don't buy that...he now knows he is well and truly fucked.

He has spunked every "groundbreaking" populist policy all over the electorates knickers in his first year, there is nothing left in the piggy bank to wow us with and if you look at the parliament there is virtually nothing going on there. No legislation of any note, unless you count bills about tartan registers and commonwealth games ticket touting.

He has failed miserably on the policies that would actually have made a difference; class sizes and more police. The policies he has implemented, although popular, will make not a dent in the real problems of this country.

The next three years are going to be a catalogue of utter piss as the SNP bed down into the same pish we have been treated to by every idiot we have been coerced into voting for at Holyrood.

It was a genius move caling the tartan butterball out to fight...it will prove that he is a fat shitebag with about as much substance as a weightwatchers meal.

He now is left without his main weapon, which is that the unionists are afraid of asking the people what they want when the real truth is that he is scared because he is nowhere near and will never get close to convincing this country to break the union.

He will disappear into the sunset like he does every time he does not get his way and we are left looking like a bunch of arseholes as people start to believe he is talking for the country, which he clearly is not.

As an aside why do the more nationalist posters amongst us post oponions talking about "we" when every unionist talks about "i".

A very strange phenomenon.

[The Old Northerner]

As an aside why do the more nationalist posters amongst us post oponions talking about "we" when every unionist talks about "i".

A very strange phenomenon.

What should the 'not bothered either way' use?

[Guest Ron Burgundy]

What should the 'not bothered either way' use?

they should not bother either way.

[H_B]

What should the 'not bothered either way' use?

They.

[Pink Freud]

Ach well, why not.

THe financial thing is a red herring. I'm convinced Scotland could do perfectly well as an independent country financially.

Yet again though, I'd like to point out just how incongruous it is to dissolve the most successful political union the world has ever seen in order to join...errr....a bigger political union that we are already represented at, and thanks to the size of our block vote, have a great deal more power than we would have otherwise.

For example - do the nationalists really think that being an independent nation in the EU will improve the livelihood of our fishermen? That having a centrally controlled currency (assuming that we eventually go into the Euro) is going to give us more financial control?

It's laughable. If we are to go for independence, then the way to go would be like Norway - all the good bits of free trade, none of the shite of Brussels and Strasbourg.

After all, the claim is that this is about controlling Scotland's future, right?

[centralparker]

The SNP wouldn't win a referendum right now but I believe that support for independence is growing at a significant rate. Just ten years ago, a separate Scotland was - even among hardcore nationalists - something of a pipe dream but now it's a hot topic which is furiously debated in the media.

The old staunchly-socialist Labour Party that looked out for the average working man is no longer in existence and they now sit slightly left of centre with the Tories symmetrically opposite, with Thatcherism a fading memory. Not a lot of difference between them in other words.

I genuinely believe that a lot of younger people are turning to the SNP, replacing the old Labour guard who are slowly but surely dying off.

[Guest Ron Burgundy]

The SNP wouldn't win a referendum right now but I believe that support for independence is growing at a significant rate. Just ten years ago, a separate Scotland was - even among hardcore nationalists - something of a pipe dream but now it's a hot topic which is furiously debated in the media.

The old staunchly-socialist Labour Party that looked out for the average working man is no longer in existence and they now sit slightly left of centre with the Tories symmetrically opposite, with Thatcherism a fading memory. Not a lot of difference between them in other words.

I genuinely believe that a lot of younger people are turning to the SNP, replacing the old Labour guard who are slowly but surely dying off.

Young people are asreholes and not to be trusted to pull their own plokers, i'm sure we can all agree with that.

I'm not 100% sure but willing to fairly confidently say that the nationalist cause has always had around a third of the countries support in one form or another.

This was the case in the seventies, eighties, less in the ninseties and it's risen it's ugly head once more, but in reality it has never ever been a majority.

It's just not enough and the sooner we vote to nail it for another ten years till they nats crawl out from the woodwork again the better.

It will of course though have provided Salmond with a lovely retirement plan of speaking engagements to Clan meetings throughout north america.

[centralparker]

I'm not 100% sure but willing to fairly confidently say that the nationalist cause has always had around a third of the countries support in one form or another.

I'd go along with that figure Ron. But despite having one third of the public behind them, the SNP couldn't muster more than half a dozen seats in Westminster (out of 72) due to the first-past-the-post voting system. At least the PR set-up of Holyrood gives them a better opportunity to air their views.