Livi v Dundee Utd (Take Three)

[Sarto Mutiny]

53 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Shows the contact onto his ankle though

The thing is, it really doesn't.

I'm not arguing it wasn't a red btw, it certainly was. I'm just saying that still images often don't prove anything.

[Durnford]

40 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

The thing is, it really doesn't.

I'm not arguing it wasn't a red btw, it certainly was. I'm just saying that still images often don't prove anything.

you can watch it in glorious full motion technicolor if you prefer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/64897751

TBH the guy seemed genuinely remorseful afterward; effectively really bad timing but Oor Wullie (Collum) would have had the red card out even before contact was made.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

The thing is, it really doesn't.

I'm not arguing it wasn't a red btw, it certainly was. I'm just saying that still images often don't prove anything.

Nope disagree with you there, fair enough the still pic doesn't show context, leading up to the challenge, or how much impact is on it, but the reason i stuck it up and had taken the pic off the bbc highlights, was it was as close as i could get to it being right on Pittman's ankle. It did connect and give Pittman a sore one, which took a wee while of play being stopped to get treatment, and for him to recover, yeah don't see anyone arguing with that tbf. Or it being a red card late challenge.

[LIVIFOREVER]

27 minutes ago, Durnford said:

you can watch it in glorious full motion technicolor if you prefer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/64897751

TBH the guy seemed genuinely remorseful afterward; effectively really bad timing but Oor Wullie (Collum) would have had the red card out even before contact was made.

I think most refs would, can't believe we have VAR and they deemed it only a yellow card, really no excuses for them getting that call wrong when it is costing teams a fair whack to have it in games, and yet we're still getting such bad calls wrong.

[Durnford]

Ignoring the cards debate for a moment - I cant get over how bad we've become from set pieces.

There was a time, not too long ago, when a free kick just outside the area; a corner or even a long throw in, gave us a strong chance of a goal. For a while now we've been totally toothless.

Almost everyone of our corners went sailing over all the players to the far end of the penalty area with no-one around.

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

19 minutes ago, Durnford said:

Ignoring the cards debate for a moment - I cant get over how bad we've become from set pieces.

There was a time, not too long ago, when a free kick just outside the area; a corner or even a long throw in, gave us a strong chance of a goal. For a while now we've been totally toothless.

Almost everyone of our corners went sailing over all the players to the far end of the penalty area with no-one around.

 

Think Bradley has changed that though, he scored a cracker against Stenny, and has taken decent ones since. Would have a cracking shot on him for pens, if we ever get one again.

 

Yeah i mentioned that as i was sitting watching the game last night, we were hitting our corners long, having to be headed back into the 6 yard box, though we at least have de Lucas getting onto them now, and getting them into the danger area. Think we put in one decent corner late on, but that was it. Guthrie would be a decent player for set pieces if only he could head the ball under the bar.

Edited March 9, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Menga Bus]

Think Guthrie’s first season was the last time we imposed any real threat from set pieces and that was really through him alone. Fitzwater is a soft cb and doesn’t win many headers in the opposition box, Obileye wins a fair share but never gets any sense of direction or control onto the ball. Defensively De Lucas looked to place his headers reasonably well but didn’t see enough in the opposition box to judge him there. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 minutes ago, Menga Bus said:

Think Guthrie’s first season was the last time we imposed any real threat from set pieces and that was really through him alone. Fitzwater is a soft cb and doesn’t win many headers in the opposition box, Obileye wins a fair share but never gets any sense of direction or control onto the ball. Defensively De Lucas looked to place his headers reasonably well but didn’t see enough in the opposition box to judge him there. 

Yep, Guthrie the CB was an aggressive player going for high balls, great defending them and attacking them in the opposition box, Ciaron Brown was good too. Fitzwater is decent at getting onto knock downs and firing them on target, but needs someone like de Lucas to win the header first, and both play in the same position so that wont happen. Unless Martindale sticks de Lucas on the left.

 

[Menga Bus]

Can’t imagine we’ll see Fitzwater play too many more times, unless De Lucas has a disaster against County or through injury/suspension. Think De Lucas showed enough last night that will make Martindale want to persist with him and Boyes as a pairing to prepare for next season. He has a history of dropping players out when they won’t resign.

[Granny Danger]

My biggest criticism of the ref last night was giving Livi players free kicks every time they went down with minimal contact.  It was embarrassing to watch.

[orco]

44 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

My biggest criticism of the ref last night was giving Livi players free kicks every time they went down with minimal contact.  It was embarrassing to watch.

Well that certainly wasn't Nouble. The United players were almost having intimate relations with him every time he had the ball yet he got diddly squat from that excuse of a referee.

[ArabFC]

2 hours ago, Durnford said:

you can watch it in glorious full motion technicolor if you prefer

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/64897751

TBH the guy seemed genuinely remorseful afterward; effectively really bad timing but Oor Wullie (Collum) would have had the red card out even before contact was made.

First time watching it. Wouldn't have been surprised to see a red given - you get that these days.

However, people just equate studs on a leg as an automatic "legbreaker" when it's rarely anything of the sort.

In this one, he's stretching into the challenge rather than throwing his body weight into it. Sure, it would've hurt a bit, but it's not dreadful. I'm presuming the boy just got up and played on?

Not really bothered, but if this was a red card at amateur level we'd be playing five a sides most weeks.

[Durnford]

25 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

First time watching it. Wouldn't have been surprised to see a red given - you get that these days.

However, people just equate studs on a leg as an automatic "legbreaker" when it's rarely anything of the sort.

In this one, he's stretching into the challenge rather than throwing his body weight into it. Sure, it would've hurt a bit, but it's not dreadful. I'm presuming the boy just got up and played on?

Not really bothered, but if this was a red card at amateur level we'd be playing five a sides most weeks.

I think what riles most Livi supporters is that we recently had Pittman and Holt receive straight reds that were significantly less clear cut that this one.

However, the last thing we would want is for a SFA review with a prospective post award of a red card. That just wouldn't be fair and reasonable and nothing to do with the fact that you play St Mirren next and we would prefer you to be a full strength.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, ArabFC said:

First time watching it. Wouldn't have been surprised to see a red given - you get that these days.

However, people just equate studs on a leg as an automatic "legbreaker" when it's rarely anything of the sort.

In this one, he's stretching into the challenge rather than throwing his body weight into it. Sure, it would've hurt a bit, but it's not dreadful. I'm presuming the boy just got up and played on?

Not really bothered, but if this was a red card at amateur level we'd be playing five a sides most weeks.

Was down injured needing treatment a fair while before he got up and played out the game, wouldn't say a red was based on whether his ankle was broken or not though.

We've had 3 red cards for a lot less than that one this season, with VAR getting involved.

[hoobahabba]

3 hours ago, ArabFC said:

First time watching it. Wouldn't have been surprised to see a red given - you get that these days.

However, people just equate studs on a leg as an automatic "legbreaker" when it's rarely anything of the sort.

In this one, he's stretching into the challenge rather than throwing his body weight into it. Sure, it would've hurt a bit, but it's not dreadful. I'm presuming the boy just got up and played on?

Not really bothered, but if this was a red card at amateur level we'd be playing five a sides most weeks.

As others have said, it’s more the inconsistency which is so galling. Holt and Pittman were sent off for far less. after VAR got involved. The fact that they didn’t even bother to review Ayina’s tackle is hard to take. Same with Cochrane’s when we played Hearts. Dropping points in this one was entirely down to the performance and, to be honest, I think Utd did enough to earn a point in the end. I can’t stand VAR, though. The fact that we had to stump up for it in the first place and that it has subsequently fucked us over on numerous occasions. It hasn’t changed the fact that the standard of officiating in this league is abysmal.

[Dundee Hibernian]

Maybe VAR was not utilised as much as some might think was necessary because Matthew MacDermid didn't want to stay out in the cold too long.

Seen some mild criticism of David Martindale on the match posts: are Livingston fans genuinely unhappy with the work he is doing?

[Guest]

Most of football's rules are to be applied according to the subjective individual interpretation of the referee. The decisions being discussed here were all made by different referees in different matches. A complaint of inconsistency only makes sense if the same referee is applying the rules differently for similar cases. The ref for this match was consistent. He awarded fouls to a roughly normal extent. He was significantly more lenient with giving yellow and red cards than the norm. An exception was verbal dissent, which he was stricter than the norm with giving a card for. I think his interpretation of the rules is shite but it was consistent throughout the match.

Ayina and Freeman were lucky they had that ref last night. Holt and Pittman were unlucky with the refs (and/or VAR officials) they had when they were sent off in recent matches. It's not a question of consistency because these are different referees each time. It's a question of good or bad fortune for players regarding which ref it is that day and how that ref interprets the rules.

Edited March 9, 2023 by FreedomFarter

[hoobahabba]

4 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Maybe VAR was not utilised as much as some might think was necessary because Matthew MacDermid didn't want to stay out in the cold too long.

Seen some mild criticism of David Martindale on the match posts: are Livingston fans genuinely unhappy with the work he is doing?

I think you'd have to be pretty lacking in perspective to be dissatisfied with where we are as a club as a result of Martindale's commitment and skill as a manager. I think any criticism is more down to disappointment with "what could have been" than what is. If we all take a step back, I don't think many rational Livi fans could say that Martindale hasn't done a good job. 

[Durnford]

I would struggle to think of a better manager anywhere for spotting a diamond in the rough and bringing them through; as a trainer for developing a high tempo side; for letting, what some people may describe as, mediocre or flawed player realise their full potential.

I do sometimes question his tactics; often in the form substitution choices but then I doubt there's any manager I haven't been guilty of doing that with.

I'm not a glass half empty or half full guy. I'm not even a glass is twice as large as it needs to be. 

I'm a "that glass needs topping up" codger.

[hoobahabba]

7 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Most of football's rules are to be applied according to the subjective individual interpretation of the referee. The decisions being discussed here were all made by different referees in different matches. A complaint of inconsistency only makes sense if the same referee is applying the rules differently for similar cases. The ref for this match was consistent. He awarded fouls to a roughly normal extent. He was significantly more lenient with giving yellow and red cards than the norm. An exception was verbal dissent, which he was stricter than the norm with giving a card for. I think his interpretation of the rules is shite but it was consistent throughout the match.

Ayina and Freedman were lucky they had that ref last night. Holt and Pittman were unlucky with the refs (and/or VAR officials) they had when they were sent off in recent matches. It's not a question of consistency because these are different referees each time. It's a question of good or bad fortune for players regarding which ref it is that day and how that ref interprets the rules.

Disagree. You can legitimately complain about inconsistency in the application of the rules by different referees in different games. How else are you supposed to determine an acceptable standard?