Livi v Dundee Utd (Take Three)

[LiviLion]

I could moan about that refereeing for days but this result is down to our bottling. Going 1-0 up and deciding that'll do after 30 minutes rarely works. The subs Martindale made at 1-1 convinced me he was just playing for a draw which made me incandescent with rage.

I'm left wondering what Martindale's half time talks are like (Stenny aside), a good few times this season we've come out for the second half looking like they've just rolled out of bed and not awake yet. 

[Durnford]

Extremely frustrating. To have 71% in the first half but only score one goal was bad; to have ten shots at goal compared to two in the first half was equally galling BUT he second half was a real mess. 

Holt was having a relatively poor game yet Martindale brought on Kelly for Anderson. 

His decision to take Bradley off may have been down to an injury but, if that was the case, surely the most sensible replacement would have been Bahamboula rather than Omeonga.

Omeonga is most effective on from the start; wearing down teams and then substituted when he's picked up a caution; bringing him on for the last 15 was truly pointless.

As for bringing Guthrie on I'm not really sure what that was meant to achieve.

United were decidedly "robust" today but I found it quite interesting as it demonstrated a team with spirit. A couple of weeks back they were dead in the water; now I'm not s sure. The biggest challenge is, with Goodwin now instilling his personality in the team, whether they can keep 11 players on the pitch with a different referee in charge.  According to the stats I can find; Matthew MacDermid has averaged about 4 yellows per game and not issued a red since 2021. Compare that to Willie Collum or Andrew Dallas et al?

A far bigger travelling support than I'd expected; between 900 and 950 as far as I could calculate which is pretty impressive considering the history (and temperature).

Irrespective though that was two points dropped for us in my opinion.

[Durnford]

Was pleased with De Lucas starting debut; pretty solid IMO. Its difficult to be certain based on one and a bit games but I though he was well ahead of Fitzwater; or rather the Fitzwater that's been playing since the world cup break.

[Pull My Strings]

I'll take that. We got less than we deserved on Saturday but maybe more than we deserved tonight. Bit silly from Freeman in the first half when he was already on a booking and a more excitable ref might have sent Ayina off in the second (although in previous seasons that sort of tackle wouldn't even have been commented upon). I thought the McMann was probably a red, not that it would have made any difference to the outcome at that stage.

Livi are a very "canny" team. It's not very sporting but it does a job and makes them difficult to play against. That could be construed as an insult but it's not a criticism. It's a professional game and you should be looking for every edge you can get. United, meanwhile, are completely uncanny. Uncannily shite. 

For the sake of balance, Livi are also a much better team even without the gamesmanship. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

Livi are a very "canny" team. It's not very sporting but it does a job and makes them difficult to play against. That could be construed as an insult but it's not a criticism. It's a professional game and you should be looking for every edge you can get. United, meanwhile, are completely uncanny. Uncannily shite. 

You're comparing them to the current Utd team so you may be right on that but compared to previous Livi teams they're certainly not.

Gary Holt inherited a mentally rock solid group of players with the experience of a double promotion together. The back 3 in that team - Craig Halkett, Declan Gallagher and Alan Lithgow - were canniness personified. The following season Marvin Bartley was added and became the most fouled player in the league so canny he was at winning them.

Martindale then took over when that player group had gone and budget constraints meant he needed to replace them with younger, less experienced players. Our game management with this squad has been atrocious. Regular late goal concessions, collapses when going down to 10 men, inability to defend leads, etc. At the second half restart tonight it was clear the Livi players had been instructed to try and draw the sting out of the expected Utd resurgence. They were awful at it. Kicking the ball away when the opponents have a throw in does nothing, that doesn't give you any control. It was no surprise Utd soon scored.

[The Wrong Car]

Very much a game of two halves.

First half we played very well, and should have tested Biragetti more. Dundee United were comically bad - CBs smashing into each other, chipping a pass at head height towards your own goal ect

Second half Dundee United were much improved, without really threatening. We were dreadful, no spark and the play seemed incredibly slow. The first half Shinnie and Holt moved the ball quickly, but in the second we just seemed ponderous on the ball. As much as the ref was shite, the subs really killed us. Taking off our number 9 and the goalscorer, play 15 minutes then bring on a striker? Madness 

I think we ended up with 5 CMs at one time, which is wild given Dundee United's weakness is the wide areas. 

Overall, we're still very much in the mix for Top 6, and Dundee United showed they have a bit of fight so I doubt any team is too disappointed. 

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

13 hours ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Lucky to finish with 11 players, could have been 9 with different tombola refereeing. Probably even luckier to get a point.

Second half gave (false?) hope. I've been looking at likely competitors in the Championship next season, and bet I'm not the only fan doing this.

 

12 hours ago, ATLIS said:

Fucking shocking refereeing. 2 clear reds, all day long. Ridiculous. What’s the fucking point in VAR?

 

Martindale making a few mistakes with the subs too. Shinnie stayed on far too long. Any time this team gets talked up for anything, Europe, cup final, etc it gets bottled. If they’re not looked at as the underdog they shit the bed 

Could even have been 3 red cards, the foul outside our box but no booking because he was already on a yellow, the tackle on Pittman, then Guthrie fouled as he was breaking up the pitch. Rf wouldn't even go look at the monitor, just waved VAR away the useless c**t.

14 hours ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Have Livi fallen asleep at halftime?

Convinced our players get served a mug of Horlicks at HT.

14 hours ago, thruthenight said:

You can see the studs into the ankle there, awful tackle.

Boils my piss when Holt and Pittman got VAR red cards for much less than this one

 

[Twinkle]

To be fair, the ref called a couple of big decisions in our favour however im surprised nobody has mentioned what appeared to me to be a stick on penalty for a handball in the second half. Given the current handball rules and what we have seen already this season, im shocked more wasnt made of it at the time despite our players claiming for it

[Sarto Mutiny]

Can we stop using still photos to "prove" that players should or shouldn't be sent off, please? Thank you

[Coventry Saint]

24 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

Can we stop using still photos to "prove" that players should or shouldn't be sent off, please? Thank you

Agreed.

[Sarto Mutiny]

3 minutes ago, Coventry Saint said:

Agreed.

Touché 

[LIVIFOREVER]

48 minutes ago, Twinkle said:

To be fair, the ref called a couple of big decisions in our favour however im surprised nobody has mentioned what appeared to me to be a stick on penalty for a handball in the second half. Given the current handball rules and what we have seen already this season, im shocked more wasnt made of it at the time despite our players claiming for it

Hits Montano on his arm by his side, equally Sibbald is hit on his arm bent inwards as he's turning away from Bradley's shot, much of a muchness between them.

[LIVIFOREVER]

47 minutes ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

Can we stop using still photos to "prove" that players should or shouldn't be sent off, please? Thank you

Shows the contact onto his ankle though, anyone watching it in motion can see it's a clear red too though.

[Guest]

Sibbald was good. His passing was key in Utd's ability to up the tempo in that period between half time and the equaliser, I thought. 

[Twinkle]

15 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Hits Montano on his arm by his side, equally Sibbald is hit on his arm bent inwards as he's turning away from Bradley's shot, much of a muchness between them.

I think the difference is that Sibbalds was point blank range whereas Montano saw that ball coming from a distance and misjudged it due to the other Livi player swiping and missing the ball

 

Eta - its one you scream for if its your team but are seething about if it goes against you

Edited March 9, 2023 by Twinkle

[LIVIFOREVER]

6 minutes ago, Twinkle said:

I think the difference is that Sibbalds was point blank range whereas Montano saw that ball coming from a distance and misjudged it due to the other Livi player swiping and missing the ball

Personally didn't think either was a penalty, Sibbs arms are round in front of his body, and Montano's are by his side, not moving them 'making his body bigger' or in 'an unnatural position'. With VAR you never know what will or wont be given though, it's that fucking inconsistent. If you're playing Sevco both of those would be given against you right enough, and that foul on Pittman would've been a def red card.

Not sure if the VAR officials told the ref they'd looked at these decisions and there was nothing to see, or if he just didn't bother his arse going over to look at the monitor, either way it's a farce paying for this shit when you get such inconsistencies.

Edited March 9, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Dundee Hibernian]

3 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

either way it's a farce paying for this shit when you get such inconsistencies.

There's one thing we can agree on!

[LIVIFOREVER]

14 hours ago, Durnford said:

Extremely frustrating. To have 71% in the first half but only score one goal was bad; to have ten shots at goal compared to two in the first half was equally galling BUT he second half was a real mess. 

Holt was having a relatively poor game yet Martindale brought on Kelly for Anderson. 

His decision to take Bradley off may have been down to an injury but, if that was the case, surely the most sensible replacement would have been Bahamboula rather than Omeonga.

Omeonga is most effective on from the start; wearing down teams and then substituted when he's picked up a caution; bringing him on for the last 15 was truly pointless.

As for bringing Guthrie on I'm not really sure what that was meant to achieve.

United were decidedly "robust" today but I found it quite interesting as it demonstrated a team with spirit. A couple of weeks back they were dead in the water; now I'm not s sure. The biggest challenge is, with Goodwin now instilling his personality in the team, whether they can keep 11 players on the pitch with a different referee in charge.  According to the stats I can find; Matthew MacDermid has averaged about 4 yellows per game and not issued a red since 2021. Compare that to Willie Collum or Andrew Dallas et al?

A far bigger travelling support than I'd expected; between 900 and 950 as far as I could calculate which is pretty impressive considering the history (and temperature).

Irrespective though that was two points dropped for us in my opinion.

As much as i like Omeonga he wasn't at it last night, first touch let him down and he shit out going for the loose ball, prob his injury against Hibs fresh in his mind. Gave away another foul on the edge of our box that could've been costly too, with a clumsy challenge.

 

Bradley was our only player looking like scoring, hit the bar and then scored in the first half, and hit the post in the 2nd, crazy decision taking him off. Shinnie was too negative 2nd half and always turned back slowing play up, almost cost us too when nobody was near him going forward, and he turned back into a Utd player losing the ball in his own half. Would've subbed him for Kelly.

 

Dunno how many times i've said that about Guthrie, just brings very little to the team, very poor first touch and clumsy looking with the ball. Oh and just can't head the ball downwards, always puts them over the bar.

Edited March 9, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[LiviLion]

2 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Could even have been 3 red cards, the foul outside our box but no booking because he was already on a yellow, the tackle on Pittman, then Guthrie fouled as he was breaking up the pitch.

Tbf Guthrie punted the ball towards the corner flag, yellow was correct in that case.

[Durnford]

20 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

As much as i like Omeonga he wasn't at it last night, first touch let him down and he shit out going for the loose ball, prob his injury against Hibs fresh in his mind. Gave away another foul on the edge of our box that could've been costly too, with a clumsy challenge.

 

Bradley was our only player looking like scoring, hit the bar and then scored in the first half, and hit the post in the 2nd, crazy decision taking him off. Shinnie was too negative 2nd half and always turned back slowing play up, almost cost us too when nobody was near him going forward, and he turned back into a Utd player losing the ball in his own half. Would've subbed him for Kelly.

 

Dunno how many times i've said that about Guthrie, just brings very little to the team, very poor first touch and clumsy looking with the ball. Oh and just can't head the ball downwards, always puts them over the bar.

Would love Guthrie to prove us all wrong and really start to show what he can do. Sadly I dont think its going to happen.

Agree about Omeonga; he was pretty poor, won a lot of balls but seemed almost clueless on what to do next. Always said; for him to be effective he needs to be on from the start so that he can grow into the game as it develops; he certainly isn't an impact sub and trying to force him into that role is going to cause more mayhem