The Big History Thread

[Bully Wee Villa]

15 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

wasn't going to get hounded out of office by public opinion

I'm not sure Mr and Mrs Ceauşescu would agree with this assessment...

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I'm not sure Mr and Mrs Ceauşescu would agree with this assessment...

Aye, and though Khrushchev didn't have to worry too much about public opinion he didn't have anything like the control over the Politburo and other rivals that Stalin had.

[TxRover]

57 minutes ago, virginton said:

So why did you post a gigantic screed gurning about the Sino-Soviet pact? Vietnam is not China, so all of that was utterly irrelevant to your argument.

One line addressed the Sino-Soviet split, to use a common phrase of yours, try reading for comprehension.

58 minutes ago, virginton said:

The world's smallest violin playing here, for American pilots shot down while illegally bombing a neutral state. 

In any case, you are in fact talking utter pish. US 'military advisors' were conducting aerial assaults against Communists before 1965 - but these were carried out against the Viet Cong in South Vietnam.  For example, 3 Americans were killed when their helicopter gunships were shot down in battle in January 1963 at the village of Ap Bac. Ap Bac is 40 miles southwest of Saigon - the capital of South Vietnam. 

Make up your mind. It’s one of the other…you can’t say violins for this, admitting they were bombing North Vietnam, and then pivot to they were only bombing South Vietnam. For instance, a simple fact is “Pierce Arrow” was launched on August 5, 1964…which is, remarkably enough, 9 days before Khrushchev was booted. Pierce Arrow was a bombing effort against 4 torpedo boat bases and an oil storage facility…the locations are all in North Vietnam (Hon Gai, Loc Chao, Quang Khe, Phuc Loi and Vinh. Sorry to ruin your narrative. This resulted in the loss of a couple of aircraft and the capture of a pilot.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

The whole point of the laughable 'Gulf of Tonkin incident' was to establish a premise to begin US bombing of North Vietnam because their counterinsurgency in the South had completely failed. Which was the Rolling Thunder bombing campaign, that started after Khrushchev left office. 

Rolling Thunder…seven months after Khrushchev left office, yea, so what? That was a U.S. response to a manufactured provocation…which involves the Soviets how?

1 hour ago, virginton said:

There is meanwhile no evidence that the Soviet Union under Khrushchev was investing its resources into North Vietnam to fight the US in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis. You have simply taken two coincidental world events and invented a causal link between the two. 

That is simply put, false. There is ample evidence of Soviet support of North Vietnam. To argue that I’m positing that it was a direct effect, is stupid. The USSR and U.S. were active all over the world at this time, supporting opposing sides in many conflicts and disagreements.

Here's my quote: “He was perhaps focused on other things, like pouring support into Vietnam, that would hurt the Americans.” Only an incompetent reader could argue that that statement “links” support for Vietnam directly to the fallout from the Cuban Missile Crisis. What it does do is suggest that Soviet policies were to provide support to sides viewed unfavorably by the U.S.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

You've refuted nothing and have in fact just confirmed that you're so thick that you don't even understand your own country's very recent history. 

Pick up a fucking book for a change first, instead of just thumping out whatever ill-informed nonsense sprouts up in your head.

Your interest is books is good, perhaps volunteer to read to some of the disadvantaged youth in the First or Second Form. Your opinion is noted, and discarded.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

As someone who is qualified and experienced in doing just that, I can confirm that a factually incorrect blowhard like yourself would not pass a single course. You are a living and breathing demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

It’s a weird flex to brag about that after so many erroneous posts from you. It’s also typical to toss in big words and such to try to add gravitas to your posts. It’s amusing to see you toss out the Dunning-Krueger effect so casually, as you are certainly a risk of being a prime example yourself. When people continually point out errors in your statements, it should suggest to you that just maybe your position on the curve is different than you perceive in a number of fields.

[TxRover]

32 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

Was he? Remember that, due to the different political systems, the Soviets weren't as dependent on public opinion as the American government was. Krushchev wasn't going to get hounded out of office by public opinion the way Kennedy would have been. Giving the yanks something they can sell to their voters as a victory may well have seemed like a fairly cheap price.

Which was the point made, it would actually possibly assist Kennedy in his re-election, and if Khrushchev considered Kennedy as a good choice to work with versus the more hawkish Republicans…something Khrushchev could also sell to his military.

[vikingTON]

14 minutes ago, TxRover said:

One line addressed the Sino-Soviet split, to use a common phrase of yours, try reading for comprehension.

No, a full paragraph of inconsequential drivel followed said line. 

Quote

Make up your mind. It’s one of the other…you can’t say violins for this, admitting they were bombing North Vietnam, and then pivot to they were only bombing South Vietnam. For instance, a simple fact is “Pierce Arrow” was launched on August 5, 1964…which is, remarkably enough, 9 days before Khrushchev was booted. Pierce Arrow was a bombing effort against 4 torpedo boat bases and an oil storage facility…the locations are all in North Vietnam (Hon Gai, Loc Chao, Quang Khe, Phuc Loi and Vinh. Sorry to ruin your narrative. This resulted in the loss of a couple of aircraft and the capture of a pilot.

What support did Khrushchev offer in those whole nine days while he was being huckled out the door champ? 

In your own time - you're the self-appointed expert.

Quote

Rolling Thunder…seven months after Khrushchev left office, yea, so what? That was a U.S. response to a manufactured provocation…which involves the Soviets how?

A US response to a US manufactured provocation, which had nothing to do with Khrushchev because he was already retired. 

Quote

That is simply put, false. There is ample evidence of Soviet support of North Vietnam. To argue that I’m positing that it was a direct effect, is stupid.

There no such evidence that Khrushchev's Soviet Union was supplying North Vietnam to confront the US. Because North Vietnam was not in a state of conflict with the US and it was in both the interests of the DRV government and the Soviets to maintain that status quo. 

It was the US that broke that status in 1965 and so it was under Brezhnev that the Soviets (quite reluctantly) committed suppliers to Hanoi. Not before. You are factually incorrect yet again. Read a fucking book instead of peddling your own fantasy. 

Quote

The USSR and U.S. were active all over the world at this time, supporting opposing sides in many conflicts and disagreements.

Well thanks for that stunning point of analysis champ, your National 5 award is in the post. 

Quote

Here's my quote: “He was perhaps focused on other things, like pouring support into Vietnam, that would hurt the Americans.” Only an incompetent reader could argue that that statement “links” support for Vietnam directly to the fallout from the Cuban Missile Crisis. What it does do is suggest that Soviet policies were to provide support to sides viewed unfavorably by the U.S.

Except that there was no support being poured into Vietnam under Khrushchev, so your 'point' was completely wrong. 

The only incompetent person throughout this exchange is crystal clear. 

Quote

It’s a weird flex to brag about that after so many erroneous posts from you. It’s also typical to toss in big words and such to try to add gravitas to your posts. It’s amusing to see you toss out the Dunning-Krueger effect so casually, as you are certainly a risk of being a prime example yourself. When people continually point out errors in your statements, it should suggest to you that just maybe your position on the curve is different than you perceive in a number of fields.

^^^ word salad 

Edited March 15, 2023 by vikingTON

[TxRover]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

^^^ word salad 

Classic VT response indicating he knows he’s lost, but wants to withdraw under a smoke screen.

[vikingTON]

No, you're just an idiot I'm afraid. 

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

This is some of the worst spooky, nefarious USSR  content I've seen since Tim Snyder blamed Nazi shootings and reprisals in Eastern Europe on Soviet Partisan ambush and sabotage operations making them do it

Edited March 15, 2023 by Genuine Hibs Fan

[TxRover]

27 minutes ago, virginton said:

No, you're just an idiot I'm afraid. 

Classic VT response.

[tamthebam]

The question was once raised about what would have happened if Khrushchev had been assassinated instead of Kennedy

 

The answer given was that Aristotle Onassis wouldn't have married Mrs Khrushchev that's for sure.

[Sugar_Army]

21 hours ago, TxRover said:

I’d suggest the National Memorial for Peace and Justice the next time you can visit Alabama.

Just had a Google, at first I wondered why I had not heard of it nor visited it as been in Mongomery when I visted the Alabama Dept of Archives,  but turns out it did not open until 2018.  I will definitively put it on my to do list. Much appreciated.

I hope to get back over in the next year or so.  Last time in AL i was in Tuscoloosa, we heard a loud siren go as we drove off campus.  Thought nothing of it.  Walked into JC Penny 5 mins later which appeared empty, even of staff.  It was surreal. We were half way through it when a guy appeared out of nowhere telling us to get to the back of the store.  Turns out the siren was a tornado warning.  We ended up with crowd of people sheltering, some crying and one hyperventilating. 

Me and my mate were still oblivious to the seriousness as we whispered to each other how we should go to Barnes and Noble for a dignified end in the form of death by a thousand papercuts as we were currently sitting in the lingerie dept and did not fancy being found dressed up like a Tory MP when we went to meet our maker.  

When we got the OK to go back out there was debris strewn everywhere, trees down, bins all over the place.  Turns out the eye had missed Tusc but it had borne the brunt of some high winds, other places were not so lucky but fortunately no fatalities.

About 10 days after we got back to Scotland a twister tore through Tuscaloosa and Birmigham leaving 64 dead, a national emergency was called.  I even found footage of the very mall we had sheltered in with a corner wall missing.

As much as I love the South. when the bad weather kicks in, it does not hold back.

 

[PossilYM]

The Puritans that landed in Anerica were basically religious nutjobs.

 

[TxRover]

2 hours ago, Sugar_Army said:

Just had a Google, at first I wondered why I had not heard of it nor visited it as been in Mongomery when I visted the Alabama Dept of Archives,  but turns out it did not open until 2018.  I will definitively put it on my to do list. Much appreciated.

I hope to get back over in the next year or so.  Last time in AL i was in Tuscoloosa, we heard a loud siren go as we drove off campus.  Thought nothing of it.  Walked into JC Penny 5 mins later which appeared empty, even of staff.  It was surreal. We were half way through it when a guy appeared out of nowhere telling us to get to the back of the store.  Turns out the siren was a tornado warning.  We ended up with crowd of people sheltering, some crying and one hyperventilating. 

Me and my mate were still oblivious to the seriousness as we whispered to each other how we should go to Barnes and Noble for a dignified end in the form of death by a thousand papercuts as we were currently sitting in the lingerie dept and did not fancy being found dressed up like a Tory MP when we went to meet our maker.  

When we got the OK to go back out there was debris strewn everywhere, trees down, bins all over the place.  Turns out the eye had missed Tusc but it had borne the brunt of some high winds, other places were not so lucky but fortunately no fatalities.

About 10 days after we got back to Scotland a twister tore through Tuscaloosa and Birmigham leaving 64 dead, a national emergency was called.  I even found footage of the very mall we had sheltered in with a corner wall missing.

As much as I love the South. when the bad weather kicks in, it does not hold back.

 

Glad to contribute a location to visit. You ain’t kidding about the weather, we’re being warned of possible tennis ball sized hail tomorrow.

[tamthebam]

11 hours ago, TxRover said:

Glad to contribute a location to visit. You ain’t kidding about the weather, we’re being warned of possible tennis ball sized hail tomorrow.

Topol dies and now this. Coincidence? 

[velo army]

13 hours ago, Sugar_Army said:

Just had a Google, at first I wondered why I had not heard of it nor visited it as been in Mongomery when I visted the Alabama Dept of Archives,  but turns out it did not open until 2018.  I will definitively put it on my to do list. Much appreciated.

I hope to get back over in the next year or so.  Last time in AL i was in Tuscoloosa, we heard a loud siren go as we drove off campus.  Thought nothing of it.  Walked into JC Penny 5 mins later which appeared empty, even of staff.  It was surreal. We were half way through it when a guy appeared out of nowhere telling us to get to the back of the store.  Turns out the siren was a tornado warning.  We ended up with crowd of people sheltering, some crying and one hyperventilating. 

Me and my mate were still oblivious to the seriousness as we whispered to each other how we should go to Barnes and Noble for a dignified end in the form of death by a thousand papercuts as we were currently sitting in the lingerie dept and did not fancy being found dressed up like a Tory MP when we went to meet our maker.  

When we got the OK to go back out there was debris strewn everywhere, trees down, bins all over the place.  Turns out the eye had missed Tusc but it had borne the brunt of some high winds, other places were not so lucky but fortunately no fatalities.

About 10 days after we got back to Scotland a twister tore through Tuscaloosa and Birmigham leaving 64 dead, a national emergency was called.  I even found footage of the very mall we had sheltered in with a corner wall missing.

As much as I love the South. when the bad weather kicks in, it does not hold back.

 

I have a couple of pals in Tuscaloosa who love chasing tornadoes. Utterly surreal experience for them was following the fatal one from Columbus and watching it tear through the town. 

You do seem to love grisly history, but the Dirlewanger Brigade? One read through Wikipedia was enough for me. Ghastly stuff. I dare say it holds the same fascination for people as horror movies and serial killer docs though.

I've been thinking a lot about trauma responses and how collective trauma shapes cultures. Perhaps the taciturn and pessimistic nature of polish people (broad brushing here) can be partly explained as the passing down of generational trauma experienced back then. What the Dirlewanger Brigade did in Warsaw during the uprising was truly horrifying. 

[Sugar_Army]

16 hours ago, TxRover said:

Glad to contribute a location to visit. You ain’t kidding about the weather, we’re being warned of possible tennis ball sized hail tomorrow.

I remember sitting on the porch of  house we were renting from a professor in Athens GA watching torrential rain turning the road ino a river and lighting bolts whike we sat in shorts watching the display from mother nature while eating ice cream and drinking cold drinks due to the humidity.  It us a weird weather pattern they get.

My first day on campus we chose to walk to the library.  Not a good idea in July.  Eventually took 45 mins which included taking shelter under a tree to avoid a wee shower.  It was only when my ankles started burning did I realise I was standing on top of a load of fire ants...oh ye fecker!

[Bully Wee Villa]

18 hours ago, PossilYM said:

The Puritans that landed in Anerica were basically religious nutjobs.

 

The bad news is that they still haven't left.

[Sugar_Army]

5 hours ago, velo army said:

I have a couple of pals in Tuscaloosa who love chasing tornadoes. Utterly surreal experience for them was following the fatal one from Columbus and watching it tear through the town. 

You do seem to love grisly history, but the Dirlewanger Brigade? One read through Wikipedia was enough for me. Ghastly stuff. I dare say it holds the same fascination for people as horror movies and serial killer docs though.

I've been thinking a lot about trauma responses and how collective trauma shapes cultures. Perhaps the taciturn and pessimistic nature of polish people (broad brushing here) can be partly explained as the passing down of generational trauma experienced back then. What the Dirlewanger Brigade did in Warsaw during the uprising was truly horrifying. 

Twister chasing is just mental, one wong moved and you sre fecked.  Never seen a full one and do not wish to let alone chase it.

Yeah it is a heavy read.  They were the worst of the worst but unfortunately humans are capable of much cruelty. 

Experiences of war not only bring personal experiences but also collective. For some it can be guilt while for others mass denial which they want to sweep under the carpet.  Japanese are still in denial with regards of the atrocities they committed, comfort women from Korea or Rape of Nanking etc and I am sure there are quite a few things the Allies have kept quiet about.

As for the Poles, Nazi occupation and the cruelties it brought which they seem happy enough to highlight, but they go a bit sheepish at the very mention of collaboration to hand over the Jews. Then you have 50yrs of the Soviet experience where it must have been difficult to trust your partner or family let alone your neighbours.

For the record, my other half is Polish and love the place.

[Sugar_Army]

15 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

The bad news is that they still haven't left.

I remember  stand in a queue to pay for my food once, think it was up in the sticks in VA.

Guy behind me suddenly roars out..

"University of ST Andrews huh?" (obviously  commenting on my tee shirt). 

I replied rather startled "Yeah"

To which he road back "I'm Primitive Baptist"

How the feck do you reply to that? 

The religious nutjobs are never far from you in the South.

[Sortmeout]

I’ve just finished reading a book called Ghost Wars by Steve Coll which was about the American influence, in particular the CIA, in Afghanistan (including the Pakistan, India and Saudi connections) from the start of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan through to September 10th 2001. Would highly recommend it. 
 

Here are a couple of random pages (totally unrelated to each other) for anyone who might be interested in reading it.

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Sortmeout