Heart of Midlothian v Heart of Darkness

[AJF]

22 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

That's no aimed at folk hoying things into the crowd.

I saw it at the time and thought he was lucky.  I'll no lose any sleep over it but it's stupid to do it

But that was what I was getting at. If it’s not punishable as a red under those two laws I posted, what other law would cover it that would allow a red to be branded? 

22 minutes ago, Tony Wonder said:

Surely it's excessive in the fact there is absolutely no need for it? It's not like he's chased a ball into the corner and chipped it while running, he's turned round and kicked it at them.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter. It's w**k behaviour either way, kicking the ball at teenagers because he got the vickies. 

I would imagine excessive force in this context would relate to the force he has used to kick the ball, rather than his decision to actually do it. It was a chip into the crowd.

[Rugbypark]

2 hours ago, lennyzer0 said:

f**k me, Hearts twitter is full of halfwits - people genuinely calling for Neilson's head on the back of a 3 going on 10 pumping from Rangers. Like we haven't been similarly pumped many times by both sides of the Old Firm before.

Yeah, the formation and team selection was terrible and everyone bar an infant could have told him that before kick off. He then compounded matters by refusing to change formation as soon as the first goal went in, and kept some players on the pitch who were, to be kind, playing fucking dreadful. We were shite everywhere except for in goals, and I'd have more respect for Neilson if he'd admit it, but that's the guy he is, and it's a bit late to be worrying about that now (and in his defence, it's not like he came out with shite about how it was all down to his tactical masterplan when we were putting 3 past Hibs twice in a fortnight).

But too many individual players made too many horrendous mistakes on top of those problems (some of the passing about in defence was criminal). It's a game that we routinely lose, against players who are much better than us (Rangers literally spent more on Tuesday on players than Hearts have spent in their entire history combined). Splitting the OF has always been either a (very, very) long term project or a bit of pantomime exaggeration by Joe Savage, and some online Jambo fantasists really need to remember that.

Time to dust ourselves down, Neilson to remember he's not Pep Guardiola, and move onto Saturday and Dundee Utd.

You’ve probably got three times the budget of Killlie (at least), and we ran them close recently with half a team of championship players. We also won more games than we lost against them, during the Clarke era. Foreign clubs with less budget than you regularly compete with them. You should be doing much better against them than you currently are.

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

13 minutes ago, AJF said:

But that was what I was getting at. If it’s not punishable as a red under those two laws I posted, what other law would cover it that would allow a red to be branded? 

I would imagine excessive force in this context would relate to the force he has used to kick the ball, rather than his decision to actually do it. It was a chip into the crowd.

You could definitely argue excessive force is anything where you've done something that isn't necessary.  Like, if you grab or bump a ref some will book you but you've seen red cards for it.  Beaton would definitely be the kind of ref that sent you off for that.

Like i say, i thought he was a bit lucky.  If someone did that in the OF/ThereesnoawnyOF game they'd be very much at risk of getting sent off i reckon.

[kent_don]

20 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

You could definitely argue excessive force is anything where you've done something that isn't necessary.  Like, if you grab or bump a ref some will book you but you've seen red cards for it.  Beaton would definitely be the kind of ref that sent you off for that.

 

That seems like a sensible argument. Then they rescinded the red Morelos got after he booted McKenna off the ball.

 

[lennyzer0]

37 minutes ago, Rugbypark said:

You’ve probably got three times the budget of Killlie (at least), and we ran them close recently with half a team of championship players. We also won more games than we lost against them, during the Clarke era. Foreign clubs with less budget than you regularly compete with them. You should be doing much better against them than you currently are.

I don't think anyone's denying that, are they?

[SEETHING]

4 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

So far, Hearts fans have been fairly realistic with their comments, to be fair to them (not something I say very often).

Bravado (which is cool and fun) aside, the gap between the OF and The Rest is as big as it's been in my lifetime, I think. 

If Hearts can settle themselves as bronze medalists every season, then that's nice, but I have no idea where a trophy win is coming from any time soon, which is depressing. 

(I am aware that other clubs are capable of competing against Rangers much better than Hertz are)

Edited February 2, 2023 by SEETHING

[stressball]

2 hours ago, AJF said:

But that was what I was getting at. If it’s not punishable as a red under those two laws I posted, what other law would cover it that would allow a red to be branded? 

I would imagine excessive force in this context would relate to the force he has used to kick the ball, rather than his decision to actually do it. It was a chip into the crowd.

Mourinho was sent off for it as a manager, an MLS player received a second yellow for it after being booked for a foul literally before punting it into a kids face.

So players / managers do get sent off for it.

Hazard got sent off for kicking a ball boy.

I couldn’t tell you the exact law it falls under, will do some digging though and see if I can get it.

[AJF]

37 minutes ago, stressball said:

Mourinho was sent off for it as a manager, an MLS player received a second yellow for it after being booked for a foul literally before punting it into a kids face.

So players / managers do get sent off for it.

Hazard got sent off for kicking a ball boy.

I couldn’t tell you the exact law it falls under, will do some digging though and see if I can get it.

Well aye, the player got a second yellow for it. I wasn’t arguing it wasn’t a yellow, just that it wasn’t a straight red.

Also not sure that Hazard kicking a ball boy is in any way comparable to Barisic chipping the ball into the crowd

These comparables you’ve provided are not comparable at all.

[stressball]

21 minutes ago, AJF said:

Well aye, the player got a second yellow for it. I wasn’t arguing it wasn’t a yellow, just that it wasn’t a straight red.

Also not sure that Hazard kicking a ball boy is in any way comparable to Barisic chipping the ball into the crowd

These comparables you’ve provided are not comparable at all.

It doesn’t need to be. I’ve asked a ref and they state it would be classed as violent conduct. 

[Gorgie greatness]

Think the sooner Saturday comes the better as you’re only as good as yer last game! & I’m in hospitality! Just wot you need after a dry January is free drink

 

 

[AJF]

16 minutes ago, stressball said:

It doesn’t need to be. I’ve asked a ref and they state it would be classed as violent conduct. 

Haha, did you now.

Well, as I posted earlier:

“Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.”

So what did Barisic do that falls under violent conduct? It wasn’t excessive force or brutality. So what does this “ref” believe is violent conduct?

[VincentGuerin]

8 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

@VincentGuerin is younger than I imagined 

If Robbie Neilson wins a trophy as Hearts manager, I'll eat a full meal at KFC.

[VincentGuerin]

7 hours ago, Tony Wonder said:

I'm by no means calling for his head, but it is incredibly frustrating that games against Celtic and Rangers, Rangers in particular are like Groundhog Day. Give it the big one before the game, then completely change the tactics we've been using and openly not trust players before capitulating.

There's no way Kio or Grant aren't a better and more logical option than Kuol in the middle, or that Atkinson isn't a better wingback than Hill. But by doing what he does, it ruins the confidence of the guys not involved as they aren't trusted, and it ruins the guys who are shoehorned into the wrong areas.

He's doing a good job overall, it'd be churlish to say anything different, but he really has to improve in these types of games. We are beaten before we even start when we lineup like that.

As you say, on to United. The next 4 are all winnable so let's get on another run, cement 3rd and get to the SC quarters. 

Agree with this.

Neilson out GTF etc is daft. He's doing a good job, and we're on course to achieve the objective for the season in very trying circumstances. He deserves credit and respect for that.

But I think most people who are watching Hearts closely would agree on two things.

1) While the Head Coach is important, Joe Savage has had a huge impact at the club, and any coach working with him has  a huge advantage and is set up to do well. Recruitment is good, the club is generally good off the pitch, and that's the main reason we're better than our rivals.

2) Neilson makes the same mistakes again and again. It's the lack of progress in terms of how he approaches these games. We're getting better because we have added better players, not because he's developing tactically, or developing our young players (who he seems to have almost zero interest in).

I'm not Neilson out GTF. I'm not miles from it, but I'm not there. However, I think it's obvious that there's a point where we're going to need to say thanks and bye to Robbie and bring in someone who can take the solid base we have now (and should continue to have with more wonga and continued good recruitment) and add to that some know-how in terms of winning big games.

I can't see us winning a trophy under Robbie. The Old Firm are both strong again now, and the chances of winning a cup without beating at least one of them are now very slim. He's not up to that. He'll be our coach for a while yet, but I don't think we'll win anything till the next guy.

Edited February 2, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[stressball]

24 minutes ago, AJF said:

Haha, did you now.

Well, as I posted earlier:

“Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.”

So what did Barisic do that falls under violent conduct? It wasn’t excessive force or brutality. So what does this “ref” believe is violent conduct?

Retaliating and chipping a ball at someone’s face is the violent part.

I’d imagine any force against a spectator would be excessive? Nah?

Players have been sent off for tossing the ball at opposition players with very little force too.

And yup, I did so you can ram your quotations up your arse

Edited February 2, 2023 by stressball

[AJF]

1 minute ago, stressball said:

Retaliating and chipping a ball at someone’s face is the violent part.

And yup, I did so you can ram your quotations up your arse

I think you’re missing my question. For it to be considered violent conduct, it needs to be an action with excessive force or brutality. So which of these does your ref think it was?

[VincentGuerin]

6 hours ago, AJF said:

Big fan of this from Barisic Hearts fans in those front rows always seem to dish it out. Glad they got a bit upset at this.

 

A visiting player does that at Ibrox and it's a red every day.

Should have walked.

[AJF]

5 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

A visiting player does that at Ibrox and it's a red every day.

Should have walked.

Why though? I’ve asked a few times now and nobody can give me a clear reasoning in relation to the laws why it’s a red card. 

[stressball]

1 minute ago, AJF said:

Why though? I’ve asked a few times now and nobody can give me a clear reasoning in relation to the laws why it’s a red card. 

It’s application of excessive force to a spectator, they’re an individual that is watching the game and thus the expected amount of force applied to them deliberately  is zero.

I’m not sure how you can’t see that other than it’s a Rangers player.

I’d be fuming if a Celtic player acted like such a stupid dick and put himself in a position to be sent off… Instead of saying it was great and patting him on the back.

[VincentGuerin]

3 minutes ago, AJF said:

Why though? I’ve asked a few times now and nobody can give me a clear reasoning in relation to the laws why it’s a red card. 

I've read that. And I just disagree with your reading of the laws of the game.

Kicking the ball at kids in the crowd is excessive force against a spectator. It's bizarre to even argue it, but you will.

Had he been trying to get the ball off a spectator and wrestled him to the ground, then we could argue about whether the force was excessive. But that's not what happened. There was no justification for what he did at all.

He's a ned and should have been sent off. It made no difference to the game, but it's a very hard gig to argue he should have stayed on.

[Empty It]

5 minutes ago, AJF said:

Why though? I’ve asked a few times now and nobody can give me a clear reasoning in relation to the laws why it’s a red card. 

If he did that whilst play was stopped to another player it would be classified as violent conduct so how is that not the case when he does it to a fan? 

Deliberately hitting a spectator in the face with the ball is violent conduct regardless of the force used.