Pyramid lock out - how to push for change?

[Broomhill Ultra]

So going back to the actual subject of the thread; does anyone remember how the English pyramid opened up & can we learn any lessons from that? I seem to remember the old Vauxhall conference had to really fight to be recognised as a legitimate step below the 4th division/league 2. 

[stanley]

40 minutes ago, Broomhill Ultra said:

So going back to the actual subject of the thread; does anyone remember how the English pyramid opened up & can we learn any lessons from that? I seem to remember the old Vauxhall conference had to really fight to be recognised as a legitimate step below the 4th division/league 2. 

1979/80 - first season

Election system in place until 1986/87 so no automatic promotion (not one team was elected into the league during this period). The election system continued what had been in place pre-Conference except that now there was a national non-league division.

1986-87 - automatic promotion. Scarborough were the first team to go up. A few teams in the following years were denied promotion due to ground issues (Kidderminster 93/94, Macclesfield 94/95 and Stevenage 95/96).

2002-03 - two automatic promotion spots. Champions go up and then a second team via the playoffs (playoffs being against other National League teams rather than with League Two teams).

Edited January 25, 2023 by stanley

[Burnieman]

4 hours ago, Pyramid Watcher said:

Why should the LL and HL winners have to take place in a play-off? It’s a closed shop further up, that is one of the main sticking points.

As had been pointed out many times before, that has nothing to do with how many clubs the LL relegate/promote.  Set the example.

[Andy groundhopper]

Make it ALL champions get promoted to the spfl, 3 up and down would give relegated clubs the opportunity to bounce back. Guess the spfl club's don't want to linger in the wilderness and maybe lose SFA Scottish Cup money ?  You don't hear much moaning from Berwick,Brechin etc now they've found their level.

[rockson]

11 hours ago, Richey Edwards said:

Winning a league already proves a team worthy of promotion. No need for a play-off.

Even if it was on a goal difference of one (or even one more goal scored) over five other teams on the same number of points and they're all only six or so points above the bottom team in their division? A scenario like that (however unlikely: it is possible) argues they aren't worthy of promotion. Nor would the rest of the teams in that division be.

[Richey Edwards]

9 minutes ago, rockson said:

Even if it was on a goal difference of one (or even one more goal scored) over five other teams on the same number of points and they're all only six or so points above the bottom team in their division? A scenario like that (however unlikely: it is possible) argues they aren't worthy of promotion. Nor would the rest of the teams in that division be.

Whether you win a league by 30 points or on goal difference then you deserve to be promoted.

To say otherwise is just daft.

[jimbaxters]

1 hour ago, Richey Edwards said:

Whether you win a league by 30 points or on goal difference then you deserve to be promoted.

To say otherwise is just daft.

Correct. If that doesn't happen then it's not a pyramid.

[Shanner]

1 hour ago, rockson said:

Even if it was on a goal difference of one (or even one more goal scored) over five other teams on the same number of points and they're all only six or so points above the bottom team in their division? A scenario like that (however unlikely: it is possible) argues they aren't worthy of promotion. Nor would the rest of the teams in that division be.

This takes whataboutery to dizzying but pointless new heights. 

[Thejackdaw]

2 hours ago, rockson said:

Even if it was on a goal difference of one (or even one more goal scored) over five other teams on the same number of points and they're all only six or so points above the bottom team in their division? A scenario like that (however unlikely: it is possible) argues they aren't worthy of promotion. Nor would the rest of the teams in that division be.

That's a bit like saying a team that win the champions league aren't really worthy winners as they ' only ' won the final on penalties after winning most  group games then knock-out games up until then in 90 minutes  . 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Thejackdaw

[Shannon]

15 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Make it ALL champions get promoted to the spfl, 3 up and down would give relegated clubs the opportunity to bounce back. Guess the spfl club's don't want to linger in the wilderness and maybe lose SFA Scottish Cup money ?  You don't hear much moaning from Berwick,Brechin etc now they've found their level.

Brechin will probably wish Highland League Champions went straight up now. Really short sightedness from them and a number of SPFL Two teams as it would make it easier to come back up if they go down with automatic promotion from both Lowland and Highland League.

 

In England a number of clubs have went to National League and bounced back as easier to be promoted although some have went right down the leagues but that is more likely due to bad financial decisions by owners / dodgy owners. Most clubs in Scotland can quite easily cut their cloth quickly as players only on 1 or 2 year deals so Cowdenbeath, East Stirling and Berwick Rangers have all still survived but cut their budget right back and looking more likely to go to down to East of Scotland league than be promoted.

[funky monkey]

The Lowland League needs disbanded and redistributed to the E/W/SoSFLs.

The OF Colt Teams need sent to the SPFL Reserve League.

That'll do for a start.

Edited January 26, 2023 by funky monkey

[rockson]

On 25/01/2023 at 22:24, Thejackdaw said:

That's a bit like saying a team that win the champions league aren't really worthy winners as they ' only ' won the final on penalties after winning most  group games then knock-out games up until then in 90 minutes  . 

No it isn't. If they won most group games and knock-out games they were clearly better than the teams they beat.  In the scenario I cited the "top" team could be argued to be only luckier than the rest in their division - and not much better than the bottom one.

The point I was trying to make was that while the poster I quoted said they would be worthy of promotion they obviously wouldn't have demonstrated that worthiness. Under the rules they'd still get promoted though.

[Shanner]

On 26/01/2023 at 11:36, funky monkey said:

The Lowland League needs disbanded and redistributed to the E/W/SoSFLs.

The OF Colt Teams need sent to the SPFL Reserve League.

That'll do for a start.

I'd do the bold bit now. Wouldn't even wait until the end of the season. 

[Hillonearth]

13 hours ago, rockson said:

No it isn't. If they won most group games and knock-out games they were clearly better than the teams they beat.  In the scenario I cited the "top" team could be argued to be only luckier than the rest in their division - and not much better than the bottom one.

The point I was trying to make was that while the poster I quoted said they would be worthy of promotion they obviously wouldn't have demonstrated that worthiness. Under the rules they'd still get promoted though.

No, they'd be better than the rest of the teams in the division by dint of the fact they finished top.

A tight league finish isn't indicative of the top team not being ready for promotion - more often it's indicative of it being a strong, competitive league where a whole group of sides are promotion-ready and have taken points off each other. I know in Scotland - especially in the Premier - we're inured to the scenario where the champions win at a twelve-point canter from second place who ends up another twenty points ahead of third, but it's not the norm.

And the concept of being "worthy" of promotion other than ending up top on the final day is entirely subjective - the criteria are entirely in the hand of the beholder. Let's say SPFL 2 ends roughly the way it stands at the moment as pretty much a two-horse race with Stirling winning their game in hand....would mean Dumbarton win the league by a single point leaving Stirling with a better goal difference.

Doesn't look that "worthy" to me TBH...I think you should both go in the playoffs because they did better in one of the metrics. See how ridiculous it looks? 

It's purely protectionism, putting as many roadblocks and second chances for redemption in the way because every team from the Championship downwards knows fine well they're only a couple of shite seasons away from doing a Cowdenbeath....and they were in the Championship themselves a decade ago.

[stanley]

The champions don't even need to be "better" right now than the bottom of League Two. Being promoted/relegated will have an impact on crowds, budgets etc. so it's natural to assume that a promoted side is likely to improve their squad etc. the following season. The basic principle should be that the bottom team of each league is guaranteed relegation (not the case currently in League Two and not even in the Lowland League). 

[rockson]

9 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

No, they'd be better than the rest of the teams in the division by dint of the fact they finished top.

A tight league finish isn't indicative of the top team not being ready for promotion - more often it's indicative of it being a strong, competitive league where a whole group of sides are promotion-ready and have taken points off each other. I know in Scotland - especially in the Premier - we're inured to the scenario where the champions win at a twelve-point canter from second place who ends up another twenty points ahead of third, but it's not the norm.

And the concept of being "worthy" of promotion other than ending up top on the final day is entirely subjective - the criteria are entirely in the hand of the beholder. Let's say SPFL 2 ends roughly the way it stands at the moment as pretty much a two-horse race with Stirling winning their game in hand....would mean Dumbarton win the league by a single point leaving Stirling with a better goal difference.

Doesn't look that "worthy" to me TBH...I think you should both go in the playoffs because they did better in one of the metrics. See how ridiculous it looks? 

It's purely protectionism, putting as many roadblocks and second chances for redemption in the way because every team from the Championship downwards knows fine well they're only a couple of shite seasons away from doing a Cowdenbeath....and they were in the Championship themselves a decade ago.

FFS. I'm not arguing against teams getting promoted if they win their leagues. Those are the rules. All I'm saying is that doesn't mean a team is worthy of promotion.

The last time Dumbarton won promotion it was through the play-offs. We had finished  third - with a goal difference of zero. We went up because of the rules but was that finish worthy of promotion? Our start the next season would argue it wasn't.

The Scottish pyramid has been in place for barely three seasons yet people are pushing to have it changed yesterday.

The English pyramid took much longer than that even to achieve one promotion to the Football League. Two promotions only happened after teams had been promoted back into it again. A team getting back up hasn't yet happened in Scotland. If it does it might be a catalyst for change.

As it stands dropping into the Lowland League (as opposed to the Highland) looks like a one-way street. That will continue as long as players look at the teams coming down into it as doubtful challengers to get back again.

 

 

[Crfc1990]

Scottish league football won't change until we have 2/3 spfl leagues of 16 instead of forcing the same auld rubbish down the throat 4 times a season .

The leagues below spfl should be regional with both winners from highland and lowland leagues going straight up then a play off between 2nd place in both leagues for the a place in the spfl but this will never happen as money will talk leaving us with the same auld system at the top ...

[mick90]

Nothing will change in Scottish Football unless people stand up and do something instead of spouting useless platitudes. The game here should never be run at the whim of `private` organisations like SPFL, Highland and Lowland ... that is why we have the worst access to competition in Europe as shown here  https://www.cat22.org/access.php

Campaigners tried to take SPFL and SFA to law in the 1990`s only to discover that UK Competitions law could not be applied to our small part of the overall market. Things are different now. There is a competitions class action available. That is the only way we will get change. SPFL is a massive competitive failure, destroying local standards and player production .. now forming the Womens game in their own sad image.

[jimbaxters]

2 hours ago, mick90 said:

Nothing will change in Scottish Football unless people stand up and do something instead of spouting useless platitudes. The game here should never be run at the whim of `private` organisations like SPFL, Highland and Lowland ... that is why we have the worst access to competition in Europe as shown here  https://www.cat22.org/access.php

Campaigners tried to take SPFL and SFA to law in the 1990`s only to discover that UK Competitions law could not be applied to our small part of the overall market. Things are different now. There is a competitions class action available. That is the only way we will get change. SPFL is a massive competitive failure, destroying local standards and player production .. now forming the Womens game in their own sad image.

Tell us what we need to do.

[vikingTON]

On 28/01/2023 at 11:13, stanley said:

The champions don't even need to be "better" right now than the bottom of League Two. Being promoted/relegated will have an impact on crowds, budgets etc. so it's natural to assume that a promoted side is likely to improve their squad etc. the following season.

How's that working out for Bonnyrigg?