Pyramid lock out - how to push for change?

[stanley]

54 minutes ago, virginton said:

How's that working out for Bonnyrigg? 

Bonnyrigg going up and potentially going back down doesn't change the principle that the top teams should go and bottom teams go down. That's just one example. Cove Rangers are in the Championship, Kelty and Edinburgh are in League One so the promoted teams have done well so far. Whether or not they do well when promoted doesn't change the fact that they should be able to go up without a playoff against the bottom of League Two and that, generally speaking, teams are likely to improve upon promotion or, at least, have a higher budget (although that doesn't mean they'll do enough to stay up).

 

The three relegated teams (especially East Stirling and Cowdenbeath) also struggling this season and none are anywhere near contending for the title. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by stanley

[vikingTON]

20 minutes ago, stanley said:

Bonnyrigg going up and potentially going back down doesn't change the principle that the top teams should go and bottom teams go down. 

You were the one who pointed to improved performances by going to a higher level to justify that performance. I don't see how SPFL2 would be better served by having Bonnyrigg and Fraserburgh for that matter not being any better than the clubs currently in that setup. Cove and Kelty are not an accurate representation of anything other than the resources that they've chucked at it - which didn't change upon promotion to a higher level. 

[stanley]

32 minutes ago, virginton said:

You were the one who pointed to improved performances by going to a higher level to justify that performance. I don't see how SPFL2 would be better served by having Bonnyrigg and Fraserburgh for that matter not being any better than the clubs currently in that setup. Cove and Kelty are not an accurate representation of anything other than the resources that they've chucked at it - which didn't change upon promotion to a higher level. 

 

Cowdenbeath and East Stirling are near the bottom of the Lowland League and Berwick are struggling too. If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately but not one team has gone down and won the Lowland League and, this season, the teams aren't even close. There are a number of SPFL clubs who had very, very little success in the league for many years. Is your argument that there should be no relegation at all because you don't believe a club like Bonnyrigg to be worthy of a leaegue place?

You've not mentioned Edinburgh who went up and have now established themselves as a League One club. 

My original post was in response to the idea that a team doesn't deserve to go up if they lose the playoff. I disagree. One team should be relegated from League Two and replaced by the Highland/Lowland League playoff winners. To have a playoff for the bottom team in League Two is absurd. My post stated that you can't clearly determine how a team will do in League Two following promotion based on how they perform in a playoff against a team in a higher league. Being promoted tends to mean higher crowds and a higher budget. It doesn't guarantee that every promoted team will be successful but Bonnyrigg (being one of four teams promoted into the league so far) currently being bottom with many games left to go to avoid finishing bottom is just one example and doesn't prove anything about promotion/relegation between League Two and tier 5.

Edited January 31, 2023 by stanley

[Shanner]

13 hours ago, virginton said:

You were the one who pointed to improved performances by going to a higher level to justify that performance. I don't see how SPFL2 would be better served by having Bonnyrigg and Fraserburgh for that matter not being any better than the clubs currently in that setup. Cove and Kelty are not an accurate representation of anything other than the resources that they've chucked at it - which didn't change upon promotion to a higher level. 

 

Clearly fishing.

[rockson]

23 hours ago, stanley said:

 

 

If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately but not one team has gone down and won the Lowland League and, this season, the teams aren't even close.

Being relegated out of the SPFL immediately makes a club less attractive to players. This is for a club that has been on the slide (East Stirling a possible exception to that, since they perennially tended to struggle) and so less likely even to keep the players they had - who weren't good enough in any case.

 

Being promoted tends to mean higher crowds and a higher budget.

Hence being relegated means a lower budget and lower crowds.

 

Is it any wonder no team has yet gone back up?

It would be a miracle of sorts if one ever does bounce back straight away.

[stanley]

1 hour ago, rockson said:

If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately but not one team has gone down and won the Lowland League and, this season, the teams aren't even close.

Being relegated out of the SPFL immediately makes a club less attractive to players. This is for a club that has been on the slide (East Stirling a possible exception to that, since they perennially tended to struggle) and so less likely even to keep the players they had - who weren't good enough in any case.

 

Being promoted tends to mean higher crowds and a higher budget.

Hence being relegated means a lower budget and lower crowds.

 

Is it any wonder no team has yet gone back up?

It would be a miracle of sorts if one ever does bounce back straight away.

Yes, of course, but that was the point being disputed by another user. 

[archieb]

Brechin City, anybody?

[Greenmachine]

On 01/02/2023 at 19:48, rockson said:

If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately but not one team has gone down and won the Lowland League and, this season, the teams aren't even close.

Being relegated out of the SPFL immediately makes a club less attractive to players. This is for a club that has been on the slide (East Stirling a possible exception to that, since they perennially tended to struggle) and so less likely even to keep the players they had - who weren't good enough in any case.

 

Being promoted tends to mean higher crowds and a higher budget.

Hence being relegated means a lower budget and lower crowds.

 

Is it any wonder no team has yet gone back up?

It would be a miracle of sorts if one ever does bounce back straight away.

They get a parachute payment to help them and they still get nowhere near coming back up.

That tells you all you need to know.

[rockson]

18 hours ago, archieb said:

Brechin City, anybody?

They'll possibly get back up this year. But theyr'e in the Highland League so difficult to compare their case with E Stirling, Berwick and Cowden.

[rockson]

10 hours ago, Greenmachine said:

They get a parachute payment to help them and they still get nowhere near coming back up.

That tells you all you need to know.

I refer you to my previous answer:-

Being relegated out of the SPFL immediately makes a club less attractive to players. This is for a club that has been on the slide (East Stirling a possible exception to that, since they perennially tended to struggle) and so less likely even to keep the players they had - who weren't good enough in any case.

Parachute payments don't alter any of this.

 

[Greenmachine]

20 minutes ago, rockson said:

I refer you to my previous answer:-

Being relegated out of the SPFL immediately makes a club less attractive to players. This is for a club that has been on the slide (East Stirling a possible exception to that, since they perennially tended to struggle) and so less likely even to keep the players they had - who weren't good enough in any case.

Parachute payments don't alter any of this.

 

An extra £50k makes a difference! 

[vikingTON]

On 31/01/2023 at 20:06, stanley said:

Cowdenbeath and East Stirling are near the bottom of the Lowland League and Berwick are struggling too. If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately but not one team has gone down and won the Lowland League and, this season, the teams aren't even close. There are a number of SPFL clubs who had very, very little success in the league for many years. Is your argument that there should be no relegation at all because you don't believe a club like Bonnyrigg to be worthy of a leaegue place?

No, that's just a straw man that you've dreamt up. The onus is on you to support the assertion that promotion would make teams suddenly much more competitive. Bonnyrigg and Fraserburgh were the best teams in tier 5 and both deserved a chance at promotion. 

Having seen the decisive game between the two, I have zero doubt at all that they'd be sitting 9th and 10th in SPFL2, had both been promoted. The dead wood at that level has been cleared out. It will take a real collapse of a club into disarray for the play-off with the level below to be a foregone conclusion again - as it was when Berwick were sent packing about 17-0 by Cove.

There's no inherent reason right now why the system needs to be changed. 

Quote

You've not mentioned Edinburgh who went up and have now established themselves as a League One club. 

'FC Edinburgh' have established themselves as a Walter Mitty outfit who have alienated half of their fanbase. They are in no way an established League One club on their own merit and will be plunging back into the regional leagues about 0.4 seconds after the money runs out.

If that's your benchmark then I for one am glad the SPFL isn't automatically taking such nonsense outfits like that into its ranks. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by vikingTON

[rockson]

2 hours ago, Greenmachine said:

An extra £50k makes a difference! 

In the cases of E Stirling, Berwick and Cowdenbeath it clearly doesn't.

[rockson]

On 31/01/2023 at 20:06, stanley said:

If League Two was significantly stronger than the Lowland League then you'd expect the clubs to bounce back immediately.

 

Bottom tier SPFL clubs have players who are - mostly - on one-season contracts. (A result of Bosman.) Why should these teams be expected to bounce straight back up when the supposedly "stronger" players who took them down in all probability won't stay around for the next season? They're effectively starting from scratch - as Cowdenbeath had to at the start of this season - whereas the teams they will now be competing with are more likely to have a reasonably settled squad.

[jimbaxters]

12 hours ago, virginton said:

No, that's just a straw man that you've dreamt up. The onus is on you to support the assertion that promotion would make teams suddenly much more competitive. Bonnyrigg and Fraserburgh were the best teams in tier 5 and both deserved a chance at promotion. 

Having seen the decisive game between the two, I have zero doubt at all that they'd be sitting 9th and 10th in SPFL2, had both been promoted. The dead wood at that level has been cleared out. It will take a real collapse of a club into disarray for the play-off with the level below to be a foregone conclusion again - as it was when Berwick were sent packing about 17-0 by Cove.

There's no inherent reason right now why the system needs to be changed. 

'FC Edinburgh' have established themselves as a Walter Mitty outfit who have alienated half of their fanbase. They are in no way an established League One club on their own merit and will be plunging back into the regional leagues about 0.4 seconds after the money runs out.

If that's your benchmark then I for one am glad the SPFL isn't automatically taking such nonsense outfits like that into its ranks. 

An altogether foolish opinion which over the next five years (the timescale being necessary due to the existence of the play offs and LL) will undoubtedly come back to bite you on the bum.

[Pyramid Watcher]

14 hours ago, virginton said:

There's no inherent reason right now why the system needs to be

Are you happy with a, quite frankly, ridiculous 10 team League who play each other 4 times a season? The apathy that creates should be reason enough to change things.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

43 minutes ago, Pyramid Watcher said:

Are you happy with a, quite frankly, ridiculous 10 team League who play each other 4 times a season? The apathy that creates should be reason enough to change things.

This wont change for a while as the clubs have the power to vote and playing each other and playing the old firm 3 or 4 times a season is what they desire.
The pyramid is now a working connected system, so a team from the depths can Factually go right to the top.  There are problems, for me the biggest is between the SPFL2 relegation and the relegation promotion from the Lowland League and lets not forget the Highland League.  If we had those smaller problems sorted then all that is required is to address the 10 premier and the rest but the top wont change as the top clubs want it, the Scottish Football hierarchy want it, the top 10 teams fans all want it and as sad as it is there's no money in Scottish football so Scottish football requires it.  

It is one step at a time and Scottish football is getting there, the lower levels have now joined to the pyramid, EOSFL, SOSFL and WOSFL to the Lowland in the south and in the North, we have the Northern Region League, Midlands League and the North Caledonian League who have joined under the Highland league. Right now the focus should be opening up the SPFL2 relegation and thus the Lowland relegation and promotion to the Lowland relegation and the Highland relegation, promotion too.

This does however open up other problems, most beleive there should be at least 2 automatic relegation from the SPFL2 and maybe even a 3rd bottom, i think, should be in  relegation playoff. The simplistic and easiest way just not, winners of Highland and Lowland automatically promoted, the 2nd placed Highland and Lowland either play off to play 3rd SPFL2 bottom or all 3 in a promotion relegation playoff.  Again this would mean you don't know how many teams will be in the Lowland or Highland next season until playoffs are finished but then that adds to the excitement as all teams in the lower leagues don't know if they have survived relegation or even made the last promotion spot.   I feel if this was was arranged, the easiest method just now, then all would be content and then the pyramid can be changed for the better in the future

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

An altogether foolish opinion which over the next five years (the timescale being necessary due to the existence of the play offs and LL) will undoubtedly come back to bite you on the bum.

In what way? Where are the powerhouses of the fifth tier that are equipped to stomp all over the useless deadwood outfits in SPFL2? 

If you sat down and calculated the probabilities, then you'd realise that a significant displacement from this point on will likely be borne out across a decade or more. Which is, err, exactly how a functioning and balanced pyramid system is supposed to work. 

No more Berwicks disgracing themselves in the final; no Bonnyrigg-Fraserburgh duo guaranteeing safety for the other clubs in SPFL2. It is a genuinely competitive system. Until of course we get to tier 5 and observe the cast of nick outfits assembled in the LL. 

57 minutes ago, Pyramid Watcher said:

Are you happy with a, quite frankly, ridiculous 10 team League who play each other 4 times a season? The apathy that creates should be reason enough to change things.

The SPFL can change its league size right now without having to change the pyramid structure at all, so your 'point' is redundant. 

[Pyramid Watcher]

15 minutes ago, virginton said:

In what way? Where are the powerhouses of the fifth tier that are equipped to stomp all over the useless deadwood outfits in SPFL2? 

If you sat down and calculated the probabilities, then you'd realise that a significant displacement from this point on will likely be borne out across a decade or more. Which is, err, exactly how a functioning and balanced pyramid system is supposed to work. 

No more Berwicks disgracing themselves in the final; no Bonnyrigg-Fraserburgh duo guaranteeing safety for the other clubs in SPFL2. It is a genuinely competitive system. Until of course we get to tier 5 and observe the cast of nick outfits assembled in the LL. 

The SPFL can change its league size right now without having to change the pyramid structure at all, so your 'point' is redundant. 

Far from it. You are being very naive if you think that Celtic, Rangers and Hearts aren’t going to influence the pyramid structure to get the B teams in.
 

The chances so the SPFL changing their structure is 0%, they are happy to protect themselves at all costs, so it will come via a different route.

[stanley]

21 hours ago, rockson said:

Bottom tier SPFL clubs have players who are - mostly - on one-season contracts. (A result of Bosman.) Why should these teams be expected to bounce straight back up when the supposedly "stronger" players who took them down in all probability won't stay around for the next season? They're effectively starting from scratch - as Cowdenbeath had to at the start of this season - whereas the teams they will now be competing with are more likely to have a reasonably settled squad.

Fair points. When England first opened up relegation from the old Third Division, teams regularly went back up at the start. Perhaps because the clubs are bigger there. I suppose the clubs going down just don't have a big enough fanbase or resources to go back up although Brechin are going strong this season.

Going back to the discussion with Viking (and not responding with these points to rockson, just that it saves making a new post), it's quite difficult to debate the topic when he has decided that we are not allowed to include three of the four promoted teams. We aren't allowed to include the former non-league clubs in the Championship and League One as they don't meet his criteria so we're left only with Bonnyrigg who are bottom of League Two. .

The idea that have now lost all the struggling SPFL clubs from League Two is also very flawed. Take Albion Rovers as an example. Since the Third Division/League Two began in 29 years ago, they've had just five season above the bottom tier. Queen's Park were in a very similar position until the recent changes. Montrose as well until the last five years. There are numerous examples of clubs who have struggled a lot. That doesn't mean they deserve to be out of the SPFL but the idea that all of the struggling clubs are gone from the league now is seriously flawed. You've also got Elgin and Annan who have not managed a promotion yet since they were elected into the league. Brechin were also certainly not in the weakest four or five SPFL clubs in recent decades.

I also never said that every club that goes up will be successful. Only that they have more potential to improve by being promoted and having a higher budget, higher crowds etc. in constrast to their abilities in the playoff and that I disagree with not having automatic relegation for the bottom team (this should be the same principle for any league including the Lowland League and it's ridiculous that the bottom LL team can potentially be repreived depending on who goes up/down). Bonnyrigg being bottom with several games to go does not prove that we are now out of non-league clubs who can do well in League Two and nor does East Stirling/Berwick/Cowden/Brechin being relegated mean that we're out of SPFL clubs who have historically struggled in the league.

Edited February 4, 2023 by stanley