Pyramid lock out - how to push for change?

[parsforlife]

5 hours ago, Dev said:

Close examination of how the SFA is funded would be a starting point. It needs to be seen to be financially independent of individual club influencers/controllers. This may mean bringing in a Chief Exec from outside Scotland on a significant fixed contract basis with the authority to move mountains/call bluffs.

Once shown to be in control of its' own finances there is no reason why the SFA cannot instigate an independent outside report on the structure of the mens game. By outside meaning outside Scotland so it can be seen to be free of inside influencers.

This won't happen unless there is enough pressure/bad publicity from the media/social media. 

 

The SFA is mainly funded by the performance of the men's national side,  they then pick up some income from taking a percentage of Scottish cup gates.

There's been a few independent reports,  they are mostly shite and have as much terrible recommendations as they do reasonable ones.   We've had SPFL and SFA run by non-scots, they won't change anything..

Ultimately neither matters,  scottish football is run by the clubs and the voting structures of the various leagues etc.      We can make as much arguments about what people think the structure should be but unless people start backing those up with arguments about why the clubs with the power to change things should vote for them then nothing will change. 

Start showing why its beneficial for spfl/LL clubs to open up.

I would take the spfl merger as an example,  it only went through as enough SPL clubs became fearful of dropping down they were willing to accept increased risk of relegation in return for it being a more comfortable drop.

4 hours ago, Dev said:

I'd start again with the whole structure. FWIW:

Whatever happens the SPFL should only be open to full-time clubs. Even if it shrinks to two divisions. The remainder should go into the semi-pro ranks as licenced clubs. Below that there should be senior clubs which meet certain minimum criteria e.g. facilities. Below that should be saturday clubs in Recreational football leagues/divisions. Winter Sunday and the Summer leagues would carry on regardless. There would be no Junior/Amateur/Welfare groupings.

f**k off,   there has been a thriving national part time game for a centenary, there's absolutely no reason to stop that.  

Edited January 24, 2023 by parsforlife

[LongTimeLurker]

7 hours ago, parsforlife said:

...f**k off,   there has been a thriving national part time game for a centenary, there's absolutely no reason to stop that.  

In reality a huge chunk of the country only had the Highland League up until the mid-1990s when road transport links with the central belt had improved sufficiently. There has only been something that could sensibly be described as a national part time division for around 30 years because there are limits to how far part-time players should sensibly have to travel for away games and even now it would be interesting to see what would happen if Brora or Wick established themselves as fixtures in SPFL L2. We are straying off topic though. How to pressure the LL into opening up the playoff bottleneck is the subject. Beyond giving them a hard time on twitter, a website driven campaign with petitions to Holyrood's sport minister might be worth a go if anyone is motivated enough.

[beithboy]

The main problem is we do not have representation within the SPFL to be able to change anything, The west, east, south, lowland and highland leagues are all separate entities within the pyramid system and because of this each organisation itself cannot influence change.  We need to be part of the SPFL, under the one umbrella so that when issues of restructure are raised we at least have a chance of getting some change, instead of the  league 1 and league 2 clubs blocking any proposals in an act of self preservation.  

 

 

[Richey Edwards]

13 hours ago, G_&_T said:

I disagree. A team worthy of promotion should be able to beat the bottom side in the SPFL over two legs. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be promoted.

The other big problem with promoting both the Highland and Lowland League winners, is having to travel up to the likes of Wick Academy every other week. It would cost a fortune and result in a decline in attendances. 

I think the current system is correct. 

Winning a league already proves a team worthy of promotion. No need for a play-off.

[jimbaxters]

15 hours ago, G_&_T said:

I disagree. A team worthy of promotion should be able to beat the bottom side in the SPFL over two legs. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be promoted.

The other big problem with promoting both the Highland and Lowland League winners, is having to travel up to the likes of Wick Academy every other week. It would cost a fortune and result in a decline in attendances. 

I think the current system is correct. 

And the winner of the least progressive viewpoint on the future of Scottish football goes to.....

Imagine citing geography as being a reason to stop a club progressing into the national league. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by jimbaxters

[Dev]

16 hours ago, Dev said:

I'd start again with the whole structure. FWIW:

Whatever happens the SPFL should only be open to full-time clubs. Even if it shrinks to two divisions. The remainder should go into the semi-pro ranks as licenced clubs. Below that there should be senior clubs which meet certain minimum criteria e.g. facilities. Below that should be saturday clubs in Recreational football leagues/divisions. Winter Sunday and the Summer leagues would carry on regardless. There would be no Junior/Amateur/Welfare groupings.

FWIW only:

Tier 1:  SPFL Prem: 12 clubs

Tier 2:   SPFL Championship: 16 clubs (Padded out if necessary with some semi-pro clubs). Maybe a Bronze Licence as a minimum to be accepted into Tier 2?

Outside the SPFL:

Tier 3:  National Conference Division One: 16 clubs. Minimum standard: Existing SFA club Licence Entry Level but a min 100 seats under cover required.

A national division is needed at this level so that there is a supply of clubs which could progress to meeting the requirements of the higher level.

Adding up the numbers there's currently 12/10/10/10 SPFL clubs so 42. There's 44 clubs in the above suggestion so an extra 4 clubs move up to the Tier 2 level and 10 clubs move up from the current Tier 4 level and 2 clubs move up from the current Tier 5 level to Tier 3.

You end up with a flatter pyramid altogether. Tier 3 relegates the bottom 2 clubs and promotes the champions of the LL and HL. 

The HL and LL both have three feeder divisions so up to three relegation places from both leagues depending on whether or not the (now Tier 4) feeder leagues have licenced clubs which agree to be promoted. Agree to be promoted because there's no point in forcing clubs to be promoted from feeder leagues such as the (now Tier 5) SoS/NCal for example.

In order to prevent blockages one club per (now Tier 5) feeder league would be promoted and that could be from as low as 5th position if needs be - so if 1st doesn't want to go up then 2nd has the option, then the 3rd etc down as far as 5th. This would prevent bed-blocking.

There's also a case for allowing a second club to be promoted from a (now Tier 5) league e.g. where say the SoS doesn't have a top 5 club wanting promotion then the runners-up in the WoS and EoS could play-off for that promotion place. The same could go for the NCal with the runners-up from the Mids and North leagues playing-off for promotion.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Dev

[The Mantis]

15 hours ago, G_&_T said:

The other big problem with promoting both the Highland and Lowland League winners, is having to travel up to the likes of Wick Academy every other week.

Who would be travelling up to Wick every other week?
(apart from the Wick team bus on its way home obviously  )

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Who would be travelling up to Wick every other week?
(apart from the Wick team bus on its way home obviously  )

Everyone knows there's a secret time warp in Wick that allows them to play 1235 games on a Wednesday night in a perpetual downpour.

[G_&_T]

45 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Who would be travelling up to Wick every other week?
(apart from the Wick team bus on its way home obviously  )

I wrote '...the likes of Wick Academy...'. If this is going to be a reasoned debate, you need to quote me correctly.

You could have Ullapool FC, Orkney FC and even Eriskay FC in there, if it's a proper pyramid.

[Shanner]

Personally I'd be regionalising everything under tier 3 , but regardless of your preferred set up you need a fair and reasonable promotion and relegation system to ensure good teams aren't being held back because shite ones are being protected.

[Stag Nation]

17 hours ago, Dev said:

Close examination of how the SFA is funded would be a starting point. It needs to be seen to be financially independent of individual club influencers/controllers.

So far as clubs secretly financing the SFA is concerned, it's worth remembering that one of the two most likely suspects has been skint for most of the past 11 years, and sometimes struggling to keep the lights on, never mind bribe anyone.

[G_&_T]

How about:

 

SPL - 12 clubs

League 1* - 16 clubs (each playing the other twice, then a split into groups of 8 and play each other home and away)

Three regional leagues of 14 (East Coast, West Coast & Highland).

Top club from each is promoted. 

*I have never like the name 'Championship'

[Spyro]

Only 28 national club would create a very lopsided HL vs Eos/WoS at tier 3, and we don't want to be going down the English route of have Kelty and Cowdenbeath in a "North" division as it'll be shite

[Pyramid Watcher]

19 hours ago, Gawnupby said:

Lowland league shouldn’t essentially be a closed shop with 3 down and each winner from the regionals come up in place of them. The winner of the highland/lowland league playoff final takes the spot of 10th place in League 2 with the loser playing off with the 9th place team for another crack at it. Think this would be an ideal scenario although it definitely wouldn’t please those in the awful Lowland League. 

Why should the LL and HL winners have to take place in a play-off? It’s a closed shop further up, that is one of the main sticking points.

[Shannon]

West and East of Scotland Football League clubs, fans, committee all need to pressure the Lowland League clubs into committing to automatic promotion for winners of East and West Premier Leagues. 10 years from now they can't keep saying the Juniors were late to the party so too bad only 0-2 relegation places...

Surely with Darvel and other progressive clubs going up they will vote for more relegation spots although be just as many teams especially ex SPFL teams not wanting to drop any further so may change their votes. Plus I noted Parks Motor Group now sponsoring Lowland League leads me to think that B teams are here to stay as too many Lowland League clubs wont vote against them as getting ££.

 

My ideal set up would be SPFL Two 18 clubs and open up pyramid right up. Lowland League 16 or 18 teams with 3 up and 3 down - with East and West champions going up and play off between 2nd in East and West. With the South licensed clubs remaining going West or East.

[The Mantis]

1 hour ago, G_&_T said:

I wrote '...the likes of Wick Academy...'. If this is going to be a reasoned debate, you need to quote me correctly.

You could have Ullapool FC, Orkney FC and even Eriskay FC in there, if it's a proper pyramid.

I know you did bud, but on P&B that’s the equivalent of an open goal  
 

But underlying my flippant comment was that it’s still a daft argument, to think that spfl2 could be stuffed full of outliers, given the amount of large clubs in the densely populated central belt. The pyramid is only supposed to let clubs reach their potential, and the potential of these places you mention is roughly about where they currently are. I know, I’ve visited them all. Same applies to “the likes of Stranraer “.

[Ginaro]

5 hours ago, Richey Edwards said:

Winning a league already proves a team worthy of promotion. No need for a play-off.

In a linear system yes, but with regional leagues of (possibly) different strengths then it's not unreasonable to have a play-off. That may apply to LL v HL and to the SOS. Though unless there's a big gap between tiers then there shouldn't also be a second play-off like there is currently with club 42. 

As for the thread title - the question is when is the next opportunity for LL clubs to change the tier 6 promotion structure and will the voting have changed since the last time?

Edited January 25, 2023 by Ginaro

[Duraglit shareholder]

2 hours ago, Shannon said:

West and East of Scotland Football League clubs, fans, committee all need to pressure the Lowland League clubs into committing to automatic promotion for winners of East and West Premier Leagues. 10 years from now they can't keep saying the Juniors were late to the party so too bad only 0-2 relegation places...

Surely with Darvel and other progressive clubs going up they will vote for more relegation spots although be just as many teams especially ex SPFL teams not wanting to drop any further so may change their votes. Plus I noted Parks Motor Group now sponsoring Lowland League leads me to think that B teams are here to stay as too many Lowland League clubs wont vote against them as getting ££.

 

My ideal set up would be SPFL Two 18 clubs and open up pyramid right up. Lowland League 16 or 18 teams with 3 up and 3 down - with East and West champions going up and play off between 2nd in East and West. With the South licensed clubs remaining going West or East.

I agree with the above, but would go further, we need the top two leagues in Scotland to increase to 18 teams each, playing home and away, instead of playing same teams 4 times a year, then third division also 18 teams, the six left over from SPL2 then top 4 from lowland top 2 promoted from East, Highland, West.and South , if my maths correct, then the rest regionalised much as they are now, with all leagues having 3 up 3 down except the third division having 4 relegation places, to accommodate the winners of the different regions. I believe playing the same teams over and over again, as happens now stagnates Scottish football, time for an overhaul from top down.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

4 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

I agree with the above, but would go further, we need the top two leagues in Scotland to increase to 18 teams each, playing home and away, instead of playing same teams 4 times a year, then third division also 18 teams, the six left over from SPL2 then top 4 from lowland top 2 promoted from East, Highland, West.and South , if my maths correct, then the rest regionalised much as they are now, with all leagues having 3 up 3 down except the third division having 4 relegation places, to accommodate the winners of the different regions. I believe playing the same teams over and over again, as happens now stagnates Scottish football, time for an overhaul from top down.

The one reason that wont happen is because the ugly sisters would rather play each other 6 times a year. 

[Stag Nation]

27 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

I agree with the above, but would go further, we need the top two leagues in Scotland to increase to 18 teams each, playing home and away, instead of playing same teams 4 times a year, then third division also 18 teams, the six left over from SPL2 then top 4 from lowland top 2 promoted from East, Highland, West.and South , if my maths correct, then the rest regionalised much as they are now, with all leagues having 3 up 3 down except the third division having 4 relegation places, to accommodate the winners of the different regions. I believe playing the same teams over and over again, as happens now stagnates Scottish football, time for an overhaul from top down.

I'm old enough to remember the old 1960s-70s structure - 18 clubs in the 1st Division, 19 or 20 in the 2nd. There were far too many one-sided and/or meaningless games.

I agree that 4 times a season is rubbish, but at least it's more competitive.