Pyramid lock out - how to push for change?

[Killiepiyo]

People with more experience and knowledge than me have debated it at length, but appears to keep running into ‘self preservation’ of others that may keep the status quo of the play off bottle necks.

Granted we are a lot further forward than in the past but are we looking at multiple decades for a leveller when it could be in place much sooner?

So essentially how do we as fans, the customer essentially, push for change? outwith our clubs pulling off the incredible in the spotlight? 
 

[Richey Edwards]

For starters, the club that finishes bottom of a league should NOT have the opportunity to save themselves from relegation via the playoff. They should be down automatically.

Also, a club that finished top of their league should be promoted. They should not have to contest a play-off to be promoted. This making clubs lower down the pyramid jump through hoops to be promoted is unfair and needs to stop.

[Shanner]

7 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

For starters, the club that finishes bottom of a league should NOT have the opportunity to save themselves from relegation via the playoff. They should be down automatically.

Also, a club that finished top of their league should be promoted. They should not have to contest a play-off to be promoted. This making clubs lower down the pyramid jump through hoops to be promoted is unfair and needs to stop.

Yup, it's just asking for sporting principles that are near enough Universally accepted to be applied to the Scottish set up. 

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, Killiepiyo said:

... So essentially how do we as fans, the customer essentially, push for change? ...

Giving some of the clubs and officeholders involved in an LL context a hard time about it on twitter on a regular basis might be worth a go.

[Richey Edwards]

4 minutes ago, Shanner said:

Yup, it's just asking for sporting principles that are near enough Universally accepted to be applied to the Scottish set up. 

It's madness.

If you've won the league, you have already won the right to play at a higher level up the pyramid next season. You should not have to navigate play-offs for the privilege. 

They have deliberately made it more difficult for clubs to climb the pyramid.

[Gawnupby]

Lowland league shouldn’t essentially be a closed shop with 3 down and each winner from the regionals come up in place of them. The winner of the highland/lowland league playoff final takes the spot of 10th place in League 2 with the loser playing off with the 9th place team for another crack at it. Think this would be an ideal scenario although it definitely wouldn’t please those in the awful Lowland League. 

[Dev]

Close examination of how the SFA is funded would be a starting point. It needs to be seen to be financially independent of individual club influencers/controllers. This may mean bringing in a Chief Exec from outside Scotland on a significant fixed contract basis with the authority to move mountains/call bluffs.

Once shown to be in control of its' own finances there is no reason why the SFA cannot instigate an independent outside report on the structure of the mens game. By outside meaning outside Scotland so it can be seen to be free of inside influencers.

This won't happen unless there is enough pressure/bad publicity from the media/social media. 

 

[Dev]

2 minutes ago, Gawnupby said:

Lowland league shouldn’t essentially be a closed shop with 3 down and each winner from the regionals come up in place of them. The winner of the highland/lowland league playoff final takes the spot of 10th place in League 2 with the loser playing off with the 9th place team for another crack at it. Think this would be an ideal scenario although it definitely wouldn’t please those in the awful Lowland League. 

I'd start again with the whole structure. FWIW:

Whatever happens the SPFL should only be open to full-time clubs. Even if it shrinks to two divisions. The remainder should go into the semi-pro ranks as licenced clubs. Below that there should be senior clubs which meet certain minimum criteria e.g. facilities. Below that should be saturday clubs in Recreational football leagues/divisions. Winter Sunday and the Summer leagues would carry on regardless. There would be no Junior/Amateur/Welfare groupings.

[stanley]

East and West winners go up automatically, 2nd place in East and West plays off for third promotion spot. 

[jimbaxters]

Been working so haven't heard all these interviews of the dynamic duo on the TV and radio today in the aftermath. Have either of them mentioned anything about it? Would be the perfect opportunity to highlight the issue as most reasonable minded fans would agree that it's unfair, if they were properly aware of it. There are some who say they've promoted the WoSFL after all. 

[G_&_T]

1 hour ago, Richey Edwards said:

For starters, the club that finishes bottom of a league should NOT have the opportunity to save themselves from relegation via the playoff. They should be down automatically.

Also, a club that finished top of their league should be promoted. They should not have to contest a play-off to be promoted. This making clubs lower down the pyramid jump through hoops to be promoted is unfair and needs to stop.

I disagree. A team worthy of promotion should be able to beat the bottom side in the SPFL over two legs. If you can't do that, then you shouldn't be promoted.

The other big problem with promoting both the Highland and Lowland League winners, is having to travel up to the likes of Wick Academy every other week. It would cost a fortune and result in a decline in attendances. 

I think the current system is correct. 

[Arthurlie1981]

46 minutes ago, Dev said:

Close examination of how the SFA is funded would be a starting point. It needs to be seen to be financially independent of individual club influencers/controllers. This may mean bringing in a Chief Exec from outside Scotland on a significant fixed contract basis with the authority to move mountains/call bluffs.

Once shown to be in control of its' own finances there is no reason why the SFA cannot instigate an independent outside report on the structure of the mens game. By outside meaning outside Scotland so it can be seen to be free of inside influencers.

This won't happen unless there is enough pressure/bad publicity from the media/social media. 

 

I agree with you're first part but on the second we had an outside Scotland Chief Exec in Reagan and he made a rip roaring James Hunt of himself on many occasions when it came to the pyramid & the clubs outside of the SPFL. 

Nothing will change though as the SPFL are controlled by the clubs and they control the leagues. Both the SFA and SPFL are falling over themselves with the B teams to look further down the pyramid and unless there is an incentive turkeys won't vote for Christmas and change the promotion structure. All you have to do is look at Berwick, East Stirlingshire and Cowdenbeath and where they are the League 2 clubs to think 'that could be us next'

Wait until 1 of them falls into the EOS or WOS and see what the reaction is

 

[Broomhill Ultra]

48 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

Been working so haven't heard all these interviews of the dynamic duo on the TV and radio today in the aftermath. Have either of them mentioned anything about it? Would be the perfect opportunity to highlight the issue as most reasonable minded fans would agree that it's unfair, if they were properly aware of it. There are some who say they've promoted the WoSFL after all. 

Yes the chairman was very good in the immediate post match interview. Talked about the strength of the WoSFL, big upped Talbot, Pollok and Bankies and called for a much easier route out for the best clubs. Focussed more on that initially than Darvel’s win tbf. 

[Hillonearth]

In terms of what we could actually do, the most effective thing is for our clubs to keep beating theirs. Make it obvious that while there's a lip service pyramid in operation, the dice are currently loaded in favour of the teams currently sitting behind the two present bottlenecks of LL and SPFL entry...in both cases there are tranches of teams effectively hiding from assuming their real place in the pecking order. A lot of them are aware their time's almost up and are attempting to prolong the inevitable as long as possible. Turkeys will never vote for an early Christmas, so at the moment all our sides can do is beat them as often and as heavily as they can when they meet competitively.

Bear in mind in the west we're five or more years behind schedule in terms of the pyramid anyway...sure, a lot of it can be blamed on the lack of a viable pre-existing league to join along with the intransigence and disinformation of the previous hierarchy, but quite a lot of blame also lies with at least some of the clubs who had to be faced with the reality of what was going to be left behind and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the pyramid system....truth be told, very few pushed as hard as they could have done, so it's a bit rich if we get pissy two years in because it's not moving fast enough for our liking.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, jimbaxters said:

Been working so haven't heard all these interviews of the dynamic duo on the TV and radio today in the aftermath. Have either of them mentioned anything about it? Would be the perfect opportunity to highlight the issue as most reasonable minded fans would agree that it's unfair, if they were properly aware of it. There are some who say they've promoted the WoSFL after all. 

Haven't seen much in the immediate aftermath as i've been at work. However, it was Mick Kennedy that put the spotlight on the supposed talks going behind closed doors about creating an SPFL3 - B teams in the pyramid permanently, increasing the standard required for SPFL entry to lock out majority of non-league clubs (I think it's just Spartans +1 that meets Bronze licencing standard).

You can say it's out of self-interest, but its still on the side of the vast majority of clubs.

[Dav nan Gael]

Chuck the League 2 clubs into the self preservation bucket as well,just as guilty,if not more guilty as "some" of the LL clubs are ........  

[Pollok mad]

3 hours ago, stanley said:

East and West winners go up automatically, 2nd place in East and West plays off for third promotion spot. 

Problem with that is even if you get the Lowland league to agree to the extra relegation place, you have to get the SOSL to agree to give up its tier 6 status.

[Burnieman]

18 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Haven't seen much in the immediate aftermath as i've been at work. However, it was Mick Kennedy that put the spotlight on the supposed talks going behind closed doors about creating an SPFL3 - B teams in the pyramid permanently, increasing the standard required for SPFL entry to lock out majority of non-league clubs (I think it's just Spartans +1 that meets Bronze licencing standard).

You can say it's out of self-interest, but its still on the side of the vast majority of clubs.

I'm having difficulty in swallowing this SPL3 pish, particularly if its a vehicle to get B teams in.  Are enough L1 and L2 clubs going to swallow it? who pays for it?  will enough HL and LL clubs be interested to make up the numbers if it means them having to meet much higher (and expensive) licence standards?

However, let's assume it happens and Bronze licences are required, there's a few SPFL clubs who don't have one ie. Cove Rangers, Airdrie, Kelty Hearts, FC Edinburgh, Albion Rovers and Bonnyrigg.

For me, it doesn't add up.

 

[moses1924]

40 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Airdrie

I thought we had a Bronze licence but could be wrong, we used to anyway.

On the wider point of the thread I think there are plenty of League 1 and even Championship clubs would look at the trapdoor with fear and think, why would we make that more likely? A club like AIrdrie or Hamilton could easily be a couple of bad seasons away from dropping out the league, of course this makes it harder to get back in again if you do drop out.

[Dundee Hibernian]

8 hours ago, Killiepiyo said:

People with more experience and knowledge than me have debated it at length, but appears to keep running into ‘self preservation’ of others that may keep the status quo of the play off bottle necks.

Granted we are a lot further forward than in the past but are we looking at multiple decades for a leveller when it could be in place much sooner?

So essentially how do we as fans, the customer essentially, push for change? outwith our clubs pulling off the incredible in the spotlight? 
 

The LL clubs allowing B sides into the league precludes them, for me, of having any credence.

5 hours ago, Shanner said:

Yup, it's just asking for sporting principles that are near enough Universally accepted to be applied to the Scottish set up. 

See above, regarding B sides.

5 hours ago, Richey Edwards said:

It's madness.

If you've won the league, you have already won the right to play at a higher level up the pyramid next season. You should not have to navigate play-offs for the privilege. 

They have deliberately made it more difficult for clubs to climb the pyramid.

Hmmmm. As mentioned B sides being allowed for one two seasons only have wasted the integrity of an already flawed system.

4 hours ago, Dev said:

This may mean bringing in a Chief Exec from outside Scotland on a significant fixed contract basis with the authority to move mountains/call bluffs.

Somebody like Stewart Regan?

I've only read a few of the posts, but thinking back to why the Lowland League was set up in 2013 on a promise from Scottish football authorities, and a whim from prospective members, many of which were nowhere near the best of the rest, I have no great sympathy for many clubs stuck in the logjam. 

Couple that with the reluctance at various points of solid 'Junior' sides to turn senior, it's going to take a while for everything to settle down on merit, which is what most football fans must hope for.

And I reckon if the old Rangers hadn't gone into administration and moved to liquidation, the pyramid system wouldn't even be at the unsatisfactory stage it's at presently. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Dundee Hibernian