Cove vs Raith, 14/1/23

[CALDERON]

8 minutes ago, Mr.Reeee said:

Vaughan played as a 10 behind Gullan who was the striker, so John was dropped as a result shuffle  I would have been quiet happy with Vaughn to start and Gullan lose his place to John.

Are you saying as a player it wouldn't factor into your decision making that you are miles away from your family on a pish wage? Surely a big difference between being along the road from your family and being a bit part player and being in another country overseas and being a bit part player? I know if that was me I would take every opportunity to try and get as much game time as possible to justify the sacrifice, even taking a risk like he did in the dying moment to a) extend the teams lead and win the game and b) force myself into the managers thinking for the next game.

I'd also argue the shot was definitely on, the keeper was off his line and it bounced kindly for him but his execution was poor.

Let's be honest, John scored and then had a shot from 40 yards on Wed.  But for 80 minutes against Queens Park reserves he didn't show anything to suggest he should be starting games in the Championship, nor that he should displace Gullan.  We were very comfortable in the game with the players who started, I'd take that lineup over the one that finished the game 100 times out of 100.

Re the points around location etc, I don't really see why that should mitigate performance or why that stops a player from doing the obvious thing required to see the game out.  When fans start reaching down that far to excuse mistakes then it's clutching at straws time.

I was delighted to see John score and I really hope he does well, but let's not pretend that Murray has made some kind of mistake by not playing him more.  

[Mr.Reeee]

1 minute ago, CountryBumpkin said:

Shot absolutely was the wrong choice. Holding it up and winning a foul or finding a team mate were both much better choices. Frederiksen offers half of what Gullan does, he might not score but he hassles defenders all the time and does his fair share of linking the play. His touch in the lead up to Vaughan's goal was lovely as well, not convinced our weirdly cultish striker pulls anything as good as that off. 

Strikers who don't score should play behind the striker as a forward. IMO strikers should get you goals but that's possibly because I'm old fashioned.

The shot was on, I was looking right at the man when he hit it and if he scored it this conversation would, obviously, be very different.

I should also point out that all I do not believe Fredrickson is the answer to our woes, but I do believe he was worth a shot against a struggling Cove side. My original post supported IM using it as an opportunity for malicious compliance more than as an opportunity to make John a hero.

[R.R.FC]

5 minutes ago, Mr.Reeee said:

I think the difference in league position in this league is down to consistency and a bit of luck as the quality of player across the board is not massively different. Most squads have 3 to 4 players of decent quality and others around them of fair quality (in the context of the level the play at) who on a good day can step up a bit. 

Arbroath last season where the epitome of this in my eyes, punched well above there weight with players producing more than would usually be expected of them and building momentum. 

The reason I give such a range of expectation is exactly as above, we will never attract or build a squad which will ne better than 3rd to 7th but we may exceed expectations occasionally due to good form or fortune. We are a championship club due to our infrastructure.

I would agree there are players in other squads around us who I'd like to see in our squad but swapping entirely I believe wouldn't actually achieve all that much.

I think our midfield and goalkeeper are realistically as good as we could expect to have and I wouldn’t be in a rush to swap with anyone else there. The main difference is the firepower of sides above us.

Inverness, Dundee and Partick all have 2/3 strikers in their squad who would all be an improvement at number 9 for us. Then QP and Ayr have two of the best number 9’s in the league in Murray and Akinyemi. Not something I’d have said a year ago but I think I’d even take Robbie Muirhead as a number 9 ahead of our options there. If we had a number 9 the quality of the sides above us we could be right in the mix but without we are destined to be floating around where we are just now.

[Mr.Reeee]

5 minutes ago, CALDERON said:

Let's be honest, John scored and then had a shot from 40 yards on Wed.  But for 80 minutes against Queens Park reserves he didn't show anything to suggest he should be starting games in the Championship, nor that he should displace Gullan.  We were very comfortable in the game with the players who started, I'd take that lineup over the one that finished the game 100 times out of 100.

Re the points around location etc, I don't really see why that should mitigate performance or why that stops a player from doing the obvious thing required to see the game out.  When fans start reaching down that far to excuse mistakes then it's clutching at straws time.

I was delighted to see John score and I really hope he does well, but let's not pretend that Murray has made some kind of mistake by not playing him more.  

So you totally dismiss external factors in players decision making? As much as it would be great for the opposite to be true everyone's decisions are affected consciously or sub consciously by more than just the obvious best outcome.

I personally don't believe Gullan or John are the best, Gullan for me is not a great finisher and John is what he is a massive lump of a man, however confidence can play a part and after a good (not great) mid week I believe he should have been given a chance against one of the leagues poorer teams.

[CountryBumpkin]

Just now, Mr.Reeee said:

So you totally dismiss external factors in players decision making? As much as it would be great for the opposite to be true everyone's decisions are affected consciously or sub consciously by more than just the obvious best outcome.

I personally don't believe Gullan or John are the best, Gullan for me is not a great finisher and John is what he is a massive lump of a man, however confidence can play a part and after a good (not great) mid week I believe he should have been given a chance against one of the leagues poorer teams.

He was given a chance, and ultimately his decision led to us losing possession cheaply and then the lead.

[roverthemoon]

There’s such a weird myth building up around Fredrickson that ignores the actual reality of his performances. He’s been bang average so far. Anyone that saw him up at Arbroath would seriously question his ability. Yes, he has been better recently but 2 minutes against Dundee and one knock down doesn’t prove anything. Those of us who were there at the Queens Park game saw a slightly above average performance for 80 minutes against a significantly weakened opposition. Yes, he took his goal well and had a speculative shot that could have been amazing, but I saw nothing that deserved a guaranteed starting place yesterday. And then yesterday, piss poor decision making that cost us two points. So the jury is still out on him. Simply don’t understand the clamour for him to start - beyond his height and nationality. 

 

[roverthemoon]

6 minutes ago, CountryBumpkin said:

He was given a chance, and ultimately his decision led to us losing possession cheaply and then the lead.

This. He’ll be back on the bench thankfully. 

[Mr.Reeee]

7 minutes ago, CountryBumpkin said:

He was given a chance, and ultimately his decision led to us losing possession cheaply and then the lead.

We lost the lead because we can't defend set peices. They played out from the back after he missed, meaning the whole team failed to stop them, not one player.

If he had lobbed the keeper or if Gullan had made the same decision would it still be widely derided and openly criticised by the manager, I genuinely think not.

For me the issue of not seeing out games goes way beyond what John did, how many leads have we pished away this season based on clumsy fouls, shite defending at set peices and generally poor concentration from re-start (genuinely interested in the stats if anyone has them) it frustrating.

[R.R.FC]

5 minutes ago, roverthemoon said:

There’s such a weird myth building up around Fredrickson that ignores the actual reality of his performances. He’s been bang average so far. Anyone that saw him up at Arbroath would seriously question his ability. Yes, he has been better recently but 2 minutes against Dundee and one knock down doesn’t prove anything. Those of us who were there at the Queens Park game saw a slightly above average performance for 80 minutes against a significantly weakened opposition. Yes, he took his goal well and had a speculative shot that could have been amazing, but I saw nothing that deserved a guaranteed starting place yesterday. And then yesterday, piss poor decision making that cost us two points. So the jury is still out on him. Simply don’t understand the clamour for him to start - beyond his height and nationality. 

 

Agree with this. People keep saying he hasn’t had enough chances but there’s a reason for that, the manager sees him every day in training and in bounce matches. He doesn’t need to start league games every week for the manager to know if he is good enough.

We already had stories on here before he officially signed (presumably passed on by players) that he looked pretty hopeless in training. We are desperate for a big strong number 9 to chip in with goals, if he had shown anywhere near the standard required in training our bounce games then Murray would clearly have given him more chances.

I think we all want it to work it out for him, he seems like a nice fella and has real cult hero potential but like Fernandy Mendy, just because everyone is willing you to do well, doesn’t mean he’ll ever be good enough. Hopefully he’ll prove me wrong, I’d love nothing more.

[Kooz92]

Aye, if he had lobbed the keeper from 50 yards we'd all be on here moaning about it  Give your head a shake man. If the big man holds onto the ball, Cove don't get down the other end of the pitch to have a chance to score. He is directly at fault for the equaliser by making a ridiculous decision to shoot from 50 yards in the 92nd minute when we are 2-1 up. I don't care if the shot was on or not, the risk was too high compared to the reward given the chance of success. It's another example of shite game management from the team and he will, rightfully, find himself sitting on the bench for the forseeable future as it was poor. 

Gutted for the big guy as I thought Wednesday might be a turning point for him here at Raith but all the good from Wednesday was undone by one moment of madness yesterday.

[Specky Ginger]

I haven't seen the highlights yet, so I'm not going to comment on whether Frederikson should or shouldn't have shot. 

What if his shot had crashed off the bar and over giving Cove a goal kick? Would it have been the wrong decision then?

It's not as if he played a hospital pass that led directly to a goal. We had a chance to defend the goal kick and had eleven men back in the box to defend a corner.

That, allied with the goals conceded from set pieces against Arbroath and Morton recently, is the reason we're sitting seventh instead of making a fist of pushing for playoff place.

[Ro Sham Bo]

The worst thing that could've happened was him to almost score with the shot on Wednesday, because in reality that was an equally daft decision but he got away with it because he won a corner. Unfortunately, he's just got a quick reality check about what can happen when you make a hash of it. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Ro Sham Bo

[baillieinleeds]

53 minutes ago, R.R.FC said:

I know you have given a range down to 7th so I’m being a bit pedantic but there is no way our squad is anywhere near the 3rd best in the league. I would happily swap squads with Dundee, Partick, Queens Park, Inverness and probably Ayr in a heartbeat, particularly with what we have available just now. 

I genuinely think we are exactly where we should be, the only side above us who it could be argued we have better individuals than is Morton IMO but Imrie has down a fantastic job improving nearly every player in their squad.

That’s probably the best summation of our squad I’ve read so far. I’d always prefer other clubs players to the majority of ours….except I’d keep MacDonald, Connolly, Lang to an extent (injury prone) Stanton, Vaughan (injury prone) Spencer, Easton. Then build a squad around them. That’s a lot of cash we don’t have. We should be a club in progression. But we seem to be regressing at a rate of knots.

[CALDERON]

Of course, it was another awfully defended set piece in the end, that can't be forgotten.

[baillieinleeds]

26 minutes ago, roverthemoon said:

There’s such a weird myth building up around Fredrickson that ignores the actual reality of his performances. He’s been bang average so far. Anyone that saw him up at Arbroath would seriously question his ability. Yes, he has been better recently but 2 minutes against Dundee and one knock down doesn’t prove anything. Those of us who were there at the Queens Park game saw a slightly above average performance for 80 minutes against a significantly weakened opposition. Yes, he took his goal well and had a speculative shot that could have been amazing, but I saw nothing that deserved a guaranteed starting place yesterday. And then yesterday, piss poor decision making that cost us two points. So the jury is still out on him. Simply don’t understand the clamour for him to start - beyond his height and nationality. 

 

Big Marv was awful when he first joined the club, then grew to be a club legend. Maybe we should give the guy time. 

[CountryBumpkin]

14 minutes ago, Specky Ginger said:

I haven't seen the highlights yet, so I'm not going to comment on whether Frederikson should or shouldn't have shot. 

What if his shot had crashed off the bar and over giving Cove a goal kick? Would it have been the wrong decision then?

It's not as if he played a hospital pass that led directly to a goal. We had a chance to defend the goal kick and had eleven men back in the box to defend a corner.

That, allied with the goals conceded from set pieces against Arbroath and Morton recently, is the reason we're sitting seventh instead of making a fist of pushing for playoff place.

Can we stop living in the weird alternate universe of "what ifs"? 

All well and good speculating on how it could have been but reality is, it was a poor decision that led to Cove going up the field and winning a corner. 

[roverthemoon]

9 minutes ago, baillieinleeds said:

Big Marv was awful when he first joined the club, then grew to be a club legend. Maybe we should give the guy time. 

Absolutely not writing him off at all and really hope he goes on to prove himself, but this season is all about survival. We need our strongest players on the park and at the moment unfortunately he’s not one of them when we’re defending a lead. Definitely throw him on if we’re needing a goal late on though. 

[Paco]

There’s a middle ground with Frederiksen, both in terms of specifically shooting yesterday and overall what he can bring. People seem to be falling into ‘give him a shot’ and ‘he’s hopeless’ camps and I’m not sure either are correct  

I haven’t seen his decision to shoot but clearly it was the wrong one. But comments claiming he personally cost us the game are ludicrous. He didn’t play a Cove player in on goal, he didn’t give them one final attack. We were barely into injury time, Cove still have three or four minutes and Frederiksen gave their goalkeeper the ball. We conceded 90 seconds later from a corner. He was stupid and deserves criticism but there’s a lot of other factors at play. 
 

In terms of his general contribution, he clearly isn’t very good and in an ideal world we don’t start him in league games. But, he’s here and he showed against Dundee, albeit only for three minutes, that he could have a place as a late ‘carnage’ option. When you think to the Morton and particularly Arbroath home matches, it seems mental that we were dreadful but didn’t throw him on to try and get a winner, instead relying on Connell who came on and did nothing. 
 

I see him a bit like say Connor McBride. A squad player to come off the bench now and then, and probably only when things get desperate. With Connell gone we should see more of him, and for what it’s worth I think if he had Connell’s game time he’d have contributed about the same as he did. 

[roverthemoon]

Just watched the IM interview. He’s absolutely raging and doesn’t hold back on pointing the finger straight at big John. 

[Ro Sham Bo]

13 minutes ago, roverthemoon said:

Just watched the IM interview. He’s absolutely raging and doesn’t hold back on pointing the finger straight at big John. 

I've not seen all of Murray's interviews but that's the most annoyed I've seen him post match. 

Good news about Stanton, Ngwenya and Ross though.