10 man Livi v Well

[Ginaro]

21 hours ago, Phillips455 said:

That game showed the weakness of VAR specifically when referring to the penalty incident.

From what I'm hearing after the match, the penalty was saved and Devlin ended up putting the ball in the net with his hand. However, during said check it saw that Kelly was way over the line. And therefore the goal is ruled out and the penalty re taken.

If this is correct then this was all the correct decisions. However all the fans were warned about was a potential hand ball check and that's it. I was wondering why the penalty would be retaken if they had already scored? Even the official channels were saying initially it was a Motherwell hand ball during the goal?

Real shame but I honestly doubt this will be a match to be remembered since it didn't contain or directly affect any of the ugly sisters (aka the VAR check at Fir park confirming an offside against celtic)

All penalties are checked (if a goal isn't scored) for goalkeepers being both feet off their line, so that would've been spotted first. From there the VAR would then check the goal - because advantage could be played from the goalkeeper's infringement - which is presumably where the handball message came about. 

As for the second penalty, Livi shot themselves in the foot by having one or two of their players in the penalty area - if it was only defenders encroaching then VAR would probably have got involved to award another retake. 

[Ginaro]

Just now, capt_oats said:

Unlikely given Kelly's left foot is clearly on the line when the ball is struck.

I can see that, but I'm referring to the encroachment - if the Livi players were all outside the box then VAR may well have advised another retake due to the Motherwell encroachment, especially as the player who clears it is inside the box.

[capt_oats]

2 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

I can see that, but I'm referring to the encroachment - if the Livi players were all outside the box then VAR may well have advised another retake due to the Motherwell encroachment, especially as the player who clears it is inside the box.

Yes. That's why I deleted the post.

I was conflating yours with a post earlier in the thread that suggested Kelly was off his line for the 2nd one as well.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, East Calder Lion said:

Still fuming today about our ridiculous penalty taking record.  Why is our no:9 not taking penalties?  Any striker worth their salt wants the penalties,  look at Shankland for instance.   

This is my view too. You put your striker on penalties unless you have a genuine specialist elsewhere in the team (like how right back Dave Mackay used to successfully take them for us). Striker is a position where confidence effects performance, therefore the opportunity to score a penalty is more beneficial to strikers than players in other positions. Strikers are also used to the pressure of trying to convert chances during open play which serves them well for penalties. 

My first choice would be Anderson and if he wasn't on the pitch, Pittman to deputise. Yet they're about the only two yet to be given one. 

[Cptn Hooch]

1 hour ago, FreedomFarter said:

This is my view too. You put your striker on penalties unless you have a genuine specialist elsewhere in the team (like how right back Dave Mackay used to successfully take them for us). Striker is a position where confidence effects performance, therefore the opportunity to score a penalty is more beneficial to strikers than players in other positions. Strikers are also used to the pressure of trying to convert chances during open play which serves them well for penalties. 

My first choice would be Anderson and if he wasn't on the pitch, Pittman to deputise. Yet they're about the only two yet to be given one. 

I don't think I'd even have Pittman in my top 5 penalty takers. He seems to snatch at chances a lot more lately and looks to have zero confidence in front of goal. Guys like Bruce Anderson, Sean Kelly, Stephen Kelly, Andrew Shinnie, Jason Holt are all very good strikers of the ball...I'd even put young Stephen Bradley in that bracket based on his impressive few cameos for us. Devlin would have been one of my last choices as he doesn't appear to have much technique when striking a ball but he's done 10 out of 10 in training, 5 of them he even told the keeper where he was putting it so what do I know? Maybe he should have told Liam Kelly where he was aiming

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Cptn Hooch said:

I don't think I'd even have Pittman in my top 5 penalty takers. He seems to snatch at chances a lot more lately and looks to have zero confidence in front of goal. Guys like Bruce Anderson, Sean Kelly, Stephen Kelly, Andrew Shinnie, Jason Holt are all very good strikers of the ball...I'd even put young Stephen Bradley in that bracket based on his impressive few cameos for us. Devlin would have been one of my last choices as he doesn't appear to have much technique when striking a ball but he's done 10 out of 10 in training, 5 of them he even told the keeper where he was putting it so what do I know? Maybe he should have told Liam Kelly where he was aiming

You're right, Pittman might not have the temperament for them. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

Kelly is decent if he'd lift the ball a bit when hitting it down the centre, so keepers can't get it with their feet. He scored against Aberdeen down the centre but got lucky as it was still too low and just missed their keeper's legs, against Hearts his luck ran out with Gordon getting it with his foot, just lift the fecking ball a bit and it would be golden. His miss against St Mirren was a decent strike, sent the keeper the wrong way, but he blasted it over. By the looks of our other contenders i'd still give Kelly another shot at them.

Holt hits them with power, but is just as likely to blast it over the bar than into the top corner, much like his shots from open play, just can't keep the ball down.

Obileye was also decent enough, but seemed to lose all confidence when Craig Gordon psyched him out, then he just blasted one over too, which was very unlike how he used to take them.

Shinnie has a 100% record in pen shoot outs, if he was on the pitch i'd be happy to see him taking them too.

 

It's really costing us these pen misses, prob could've had 3pts against St Mirren, another 2pts against Hearts, and another 2pts against Motherwell, and sitting in 3rd place. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Kapowzer]

Don't forget the one you claimed wasn't one at FP earlier in the season, that cost you another point at least. And if the OF had dropped points here and there you'd be top at a canter.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Devlin vs Kelly was an overwhelming win for us in the former players battle. The real quiz.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Kapowzer said:

Don't forget the one you claimed wasn't one at FP earlier in the season, that cost you another point at least. And if the OF had dropped points here and there you'd be top at a canter.

Aye there's a few more with dodgy ref decisions but everyone has those, the pen misses were in our own hands to win games and we fecked them up. 

 

Anyway f**k the football, what about this guy.

Some effort from Alan Burrows to make it down from Livi v Motherwell yesterday and then fling a nine-darter in the World Championship final.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Kapowzer]

I'm up for playing in a league when you score a penalty to go ahead the game stops immediately and you're awarded 3 points.

This dynamic of the game immediately changes and may result in a much different result thing is so 2022.

[The Wrong Car]

I'm a bit surprised to see the negativity around this Livi team at the moment. Although we've not won in 5 games, we've drawn 3 while at times missing our first choice keeper, best CB, key CM, Pittman and Nouble across the 5 games plus a few rotational options like Guthrie. The football's not been great and often seems to adapt a "safety first" approach, but I'd put that down to circumstances

Onto the game, what a slog. Two teams that desperately need players back from injury and/or signings. Motherwell looked decent at the back but lacked quality in the wide areas.

For Livi George looked rusty but pulled off a couple of decent stops, Boyes continued his good form, Ayo continued his worrying form, the midfield was workmanlike but lacked the mobility to support Anderson who tried his best against two strong CBs. Bahamboula was fairly poor given we needed a Nouble-style performance, and Bradley looked a good option and replacement for Forrest.

In terms of the penalties, I'm not sure what else Martindale can do. A few fans seem to be moaning at Martindale for not letting Anderson take them, however he's clearly let a competition in training decide (which Devlin won) and let players on the pitch decide (Fitzwater against Hibs etc). If Anderson is on the pitch he's got as much chance as anyone to take one

Regarding Goncalves, it's clearly not a signing that worked out. He's definitely one of the boo boy targets, however he doesn't help himself when he goes down easily trying to win cheap fouls when we're counter attacking. I'm not sure what good it does to boo someone onto the pitch however 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, The Wrong Car said:

Ayo continued his worrying form

Aye, right side of our defence was a weakness these last two matches. There were individual errors. Obileye almost did a "Fitzwater v Aberdeen" in the Motherwell match when receiving a pass from George. Also for Van Veen's goal, Devlin is distracted by Spittal and lets the ball bounce past him then Obileye reacts too slowly, allowing his man to nip in ahead.

The twice Motherwell hit the bar second half came from positioning issues with Devlin and Obileye. For Van Veen's bar hit, Devlin had been caught too high which allowed Spittal in behind him to put the cross in. Devlin was back in position for the second Spittal cross (which led to the second bar hit) but if the full back is to tuck in next to the centre back to wait on the cross then clear it, you also need to hold a low enough defensive line so a cross can't come in goalside of you, which it did.

With the St Mirren goal, Devlin had similarly been caught too high as the ball was played in for Brophy. That meant Obileye had to come out and Obileye's not a tackler, he's a stopper. He blocks and clears brilliantly but for one on ones in wider areas, you want Devlin dealing with them.

Devlin's positioning problems won't be because he doesn't know where to position himself. Of course he does, he's a fantastic defender. What's probably happened is his tactical role was overstretching him. Requiring him to overlap when we attack can mean he's caught having to scramble back at times. Against County next we're away from home so likely Devlin will be told to play more conservatively and that'll shore things up.

[Durnford]

49 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

Aye, right side of our defence was a weakness these last two matches. There were individual errors. Obileye almost did a "Fitzwater v Aberdeen" in the Motherwell match when receiving a pass from George. Also for Van Veen's goal, Devlin is distracted by Spittal and lets the ball bounce past him then Obileye reacts too slowly, allowing his man to nip in ahead.

The twice Motherwell hit the bar second half came from positioning issues with Devlin and Obileye. For Van Veen's bar hit, Devlin had been caught too high which allowed Spittal in behind him to put the cross in. Devlin was back in position for the second Spittal cross (which led to the second bar hit) but if the full back is to tuck in next to the centre back to wait on the cross then clear it, you also need to hold a low enough defensive line so a cross can't come in goalside of you, which it did.

With the St Mirren goal, Devlin had similarly been caught too high as the ball was played in for Brophy. That meant Obileye had to come out and Obileye's not a tackler, he's a stopper. He blocks and clears brilliantly but for one on ones in wider areas, you want Devlin dealing with them.

Devlin's positioning problems won't be because he doesn't know where to position himself. Of course he does, he's a fantastic defender. What's probably happened is his tactical role was overstretching him. Requiring him to overlap when we attack can mean he's caught having to scramble back at times. Against County next we're away from home so likely Devlin will be told to play more conservatively and that'll shore things up.

Last couple of games I've has concerns about Obileye's speed at getting back particularly on a one to one situation. 

With Devlin keeping pushing up it seems he's been left increasingly exposed.