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German coup attempt


ICTChris

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3 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

The idea that anyone can seize power through force is incredibly naive. Even if they succeed in killing/removing the people in power, they will not be "in charge" unless they have the necessary support and/or the means to suppress any resistance.

Getting the support of most of the armed forces would seem to be essential. They got close in Turkey a few years ago.

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10 hours ago, Florentine_Pogen said:

FFS, tam, there's only about 6 people on this entire forum who know who Peggy Mount is. You'll be giving tutorials on Hilda Baker and Mary Marquis next.

father-tedand-doyle.gif.1ea519e9849f717a3741aed3337a6df9.gif

One of whom would be me...

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2 hours ago, Lex said:

If you see the Tories are far right, what do you call the actual British far right? Guys like Tommy Robinson and Nick Griffin, who are a complete electoral irrelevance. If they were European they'd be MP's.

Isolationism, rampant xenophobia, british (english) exceptionalism, seeking to erode workers rights, legislating to criminalise peaceful protest, prominent far right figures given prominent and disproportionate media status, running down public services to the detriment of the most vulnerable, anti-environmentalism, rampant transphobia. These are all examples of how modern academics define far right politics, it isnt all about the blood and soil stuff. 

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1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Getting the support of most of the armed forces would seem to be essential. They got close in Turkey a few years ago.

The footage of ordinary people in Istanbul basically bullying the soldiers involved in the coup should have been one of the most powerful images of the decade but it was buried pretty quickly as it didn't suit the US/EU narrative. 

I've seen the Guardia Civil get extremely violent with protestors in Barcelona and the obvious thing about them when you see their faces is that they don't look like the people you see living in the city whether it's the rich or the poor areas. It's the same thing with American police or the Met usually being from outside the cities they control but I don't see how that could work on the scale of a national coup in an advanced country like Germany or the UK. 

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Getting the support of most of the armed forces would seem to be essential. They got close in Turkey a few years ago.
I don't think they got remotely close to getting the support of the armed forces during the coup in Turkey. I was there during the coup attempt and it basically consisted of the population almost to a household showing support for the govt through the display of flags, banners etc. The military very quickly read the room so to speak and it seemed to pass off pretty quickly with the coup leaders rounded up to presumably never be seen again. All in it was a surreal experience.
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2 hours ago, Detournement said:

The footage of ordinary people in Istanbul basically bullying the soldiers involved in the coup should have been one of the most powerful images of the decade but it was buried pretty quickly as it didn't suit the US/EU narrative. 

I've seen the Guardia Civil get extremely violent with protestors in Barcelona and the obvious thing about them when you see their faces is that they don't look like the people you see living in the city whether it's the rich or the poor areas. It's the same thing with American police or the Met usually being from outside the cities they control but I don't see how that could work on the scale of a national coup in an advanced country like Germany or the UK. 

The NYPD and MET both until very recently had conditions of service that you had to reside within a certain distance of the city or in the city itself (in the case of the nypd i believe). 
In terms of police unifying behind a coup in the UK, really cant see it happening. 

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3 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Isolationism, rampant xenophobia, british (english) exceptionalism, seeking to erode workers rights, legislating to criminalise peaceful protest, prominent far right figures given prominent and disproportionate media status, running down public services to the detriment of the most vulnerable, anti-environmentalism, rampant transphobia. These are all examples of how modern academics define far right politics, it isnt all about the blood and soil stuff. 

Didn't answer the question there?

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1 hour ago, Lex said:

Didn't answer the question there?

Apart from the bit where i discussed tory policy and how its far right? Remember its a spectrum, just because Nick Griffin is further to the right doesnt mean the tories havent shuffled along there quite significantly. Also who is Tommy Robinson? Do you mean Stephen Yaxley Lennon? 
Dawsons Park Boy i see a red dot from you as a sign im doing something right. I truly cannot wait for your tears when we vote yes, I hope you get to see it, I hope you get to see your wee right wing fantasy land crumble as your precious wee union jack is lowered for the last time in Scotland. 

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7 hours ago, Lex said:

If you see the Tories are far right, what do you call the actual British far right? Guys like Tommy Robinson and Nick Griffin, who are a complete electoral irrelevance. If they were European they'd be MP's.

Tories who have been unfortunate not to enjoy the cosy media relationships, friendships, and finance-world links of the party proper.

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27 minutes ago, Slim Charles. said:

Was there any mention of them bringing back the helmets with the spikes on them ?

Pickelhaubes. Replaced by the classic "Stahlhelm" or "coal scuttle helmet" in 1916 the pickelhaube was introduced to the Prussian army by Frederick William IV in the 1830s and was based on a Russian design. The spike was one way of deflecting sword blows to the head from cavalry 

German Army Artillerymen wore ones with balls (steady) on top instead of spikes.

The pickelhaube was not popular worn in Zeppelins.

The Swedish Royal Guard still wear them. 

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16 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Apart from the bit where i discussed tory policy and how its far right? Remember its a spectrum, just because Nick Griffin is further to the right doesnt mean the tories havent shuffled along there quite significantly. Also who is Tommy Robinson? Do you mean Stephen Yaxley Lennon? 
Dawsons Park Boy i see a red dot from you as a sign im doing something right. I truly cannot wait for your tears when we vote yes, I hope you get to see it, I hope you get to see your wee right wing fantasy land crumble as your precious wee union jack is lowered for the last time in Scotland. 

He's got a point tho, in mainland europe it's far more common for people to express outright or old fashioned racism openly, in the uk it is often veiled as something else. There are more openly far right politicians elected too, or should i say, more who will openly use race as their argument rather than " controlling immigration " or the like

Edited by effeffsee_the2nd
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48 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

He's got a point tho, in mainland europe it's far more common for people to express outright or old fashioned racism openly, in the uk it is often veiled as something else. There are more openly far right politicians elected too, or should i say, more who will openly use race as their argument rather than " controlling immigration " or the like

This German case was inspired by US extreme libertarianism and conspiracy theorism, though. The Reichsbürger group have taken their ideas from the Sovereign Citizens movement in USA. German QAnoners were also among the plotters, along with anti-vaxxers. This is all coming from the mountain of online US shit not from traditional European fascism. 

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17 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Apart from the bit where i discussed tory policy and how its far right? Remember its a spectrum, just because Nick Griffin is further to the right doesnt mean the tories havent shuffled along there quite significantly. Also who is Tommy Robinson? Do you mean Stephen Yaxley Lennon? 
Dawsons Park Boy i see a red dot from you as a sign im doing something right. I truly cannot wait for your tears when we vote yes, I hope you get to see it, I hope you get to see your wee right wing fantasy land crumble as your precious wee union jack is lowered for the last time in Scotland. 

Quite a rant there, and you still haven't answered the question, so I'll ask again. Now that you are referring to the Tories as far right, do you have a new term for the actual far right in this country? Or do you see everyone on the right of centre as far right? If it's the latter, do you not see a potential problem with that? If not, what right wing politicians in this country would you say aren't far right?

In the unlikely event that there ever was an electoral far right surge of the BNP/Britain First whatever else they're called these days - like there has been of similar parties in Italy, France, Germany etc - what would you call it? A continuation of the status quo? Problematic indeed, that wouldn't scare people off, and it certainly wouldn't be the status quo.  To combat the UK slipping into the far right problems of continental Europe, the language has to be better. If not, desensitisation will lead to complacency and it could lead to the far right becoming something other than the complete electoral irrelevance they are today.  Let's hope not. 

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49 minutes ago, Lex said:

Quite a rant there, and you still haven't answered the question, so I'll ask again. Now that you are referring to the Tories as far right, do you have a new term for the actual far right in this country? Or do you see everyone on the right of centre as far right? If it's the latter, do you not see a potential problem with that? If not, what right wing politicians in this country would you say aren't far right?

In the unlikely event that there ever was an electoral far right surge of the BNP/Britain First whatever else they're called these days - like there has been of similar parties in Italy, France, Germany etc - what would you call it? A continuation of the status quo? Problematic indeed, that wouldn't scare people off, and it certainly wouldn't be the status quo.  To combat the UK slipping into the far right problems of continental Europe, the language has to be better. If not, desensitisation will lead to complacency and it could lead to the far right becoming something other than the complete electoral irrelevance they are today.  Let's hope not. 

You understand there already is a term for these people. Ive also clearly answered your point with a pretty clear explanation. But the term applied to AFD, BNP, Britain First would be ‘Extreme Far Right’, this isnt a new term, im very surprised you don’t know this. 
Who would I say is on the centre right? Keir Starmer, Rory Stewart, other more conservative politicians like them. I have absolutely no problem defining the current iteration of the conservative party as far right. Even go back to the 1980’s when they supported the Apartheid regime in South Africa, there have always been undertones and elements of the far right in the Tory party. But now, Suella Braverman, Boris, Etc yes im perfectly comfortable with people who refer to refugees as insects/pests, dream of sending people off to concentration camps in Rwanda, the vilification of foreigners. Douglas Ross’ gleeful idea of getting rid of Gypsy travellers etc too. Struggling to think of a historical regime that referred to ethnic groups as vermin in the past and wanted to stop Gypsy travellers in the past… maybe someone can remind us…? They are becoming increasingly emboldened by the drift of the English electorate further and further right and the things they once hinted at and spoke of amongst themselves have become acceptable to champion by their target voter base.
 

The hints have always been there, these tory fuckers are now just brazen in their scummery and hatred, i fucking despise them, ‘let the bodies pile high’. Absolutely go get them so far to f**k. 

Edited by Inanimate Carbon Rod
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I don’t think all Tories are far right but plenty are. Lots of Afd and especially the French Nationalists would be right at home in the ERG. 
 

The main reason we have less representation of fringe parties isn’t because people wouldn’t support them, it’s because of fptp.

The Tories have simply assimilated a lot of far right policies to get that vote along with their traditionalist reactionary core. In much the same way that the French Nationalists assimilated the traditionalist reactionaries and ditched their more obvious jackboots to gain traction in France.

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