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Proposed tier 5 Central League


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5 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

Get what you mean but can imagine the Sosfl would quite rightly tell the Wosfl to eff off.

The newbies in the Wosfl can hardly say much really to the rest of the leagues.

Especially all those ex Juniors who waited to there was no other choice but to join the world of Scottish non league football.

its all very well saying do this do that.there's one mighty big stumbling block,the 4 parties that makeup the pyramid would all have to agree thats the rule,cant see that happening.10 years ago i sat on the NPG for the eos and any talk of trying to get the junior clubs on board was shot down from the start,on one occasion their rep left the room.there has to be a compromise agreement struck between the west of scotland and south.imo no south club wishes to join the LL. also not that convinced some of the west teams want to either.their happy playing in their own area's.

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3 hours ago, Lowland team said:

its all very well saying do this do that.there's one mighty big stumbling block,the 4 parties that makeup the pyramid would all have to agree thats the rule,cant see that happening.10 years ago i sat on the NPG for the eos and any talk of trying to get the junior clubs on board was shot down from the start,on one occasion their rep left the room.there has to be a compromise agreement struck between the west of scotland and south.imo no south club wishes to join the LL. also not that convinced some of the west teams want to either.their happy playing in their own area's.

Yes agree. Of course there are chairmen, committee, fans etc.. of teams who have no vision of the future. But what's going to happen, in each league there are teams who want to try their luck higher so those teams who quite happy playing in their own area will find out that the teams they are used to playing with have bolted and then left with less options of high level teams that they were used too.  You will also find in the future, these chairmen, committee will all move on for younger, hungrier with more vision and then will want to see their team progress. This will be in the WOSFL, the EOSFL and so on, even in the northern section of the pyramid.  You cant expect things to happen over night, The EOSFL has been running longer that the WOSFL and everyone is learning, some faster than others. Even the development leagues, first team committees have to understand how to run a development team correctly over the years and some already have made mistakes.

We now have a fully functioning pyramid system, albeit slow in certain parts but its working all the same and once the situations sorted in the future and it will, with the SPFL2 relegation and promotion and relegation in the Lowland

In those meetings in the past and now and the future there will be people vying for power so lots of struggles but there are people I'm sure there for the best interests for Scottish football pyramid system.  I actually don't mind any team who are quite happy to stay playing in their own area as I believe it will change but let them change at their own pace and not pushed

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22 hours ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I’m going on what seems to be a reluctance to go for any more than 1 place down.

That there’s about 10 teams in the leagues below that are currently skelping the LL teams out the cups everytime they play them. It’s false position and a shite pyramid and it’s there for all to see.

I’d sooner see a strong LL2 formed underneath with the top 8 from each of the West and East the LL if it’s sticking with 1 up 1 down than wait a decade for those teams to eventually filter up. For me we are missing a really good product by watching it trickle.

But if clubs are reluctant to increase relegation as it stands, what makes you think clubs would vote for more relegation just because LL2 is created below?

Especially as LL2 would be stronger than the current EOS or WOS Premier given it has the top 8 clubs from each, meaning a relegated LL club would be even more likely to drop straight through into tier 7. Plus, we really don't need another Lowland-wide league in terms of travel.

We just need enough progressive LL clubs to vote for auto promotion for the EOS/WOS winners to speed up clubs finding their level in the pyramid.

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On 01/11/2022 at 14:23, parsforlife said:

Having two leagues cover(mostly) the exact same area is just never going to be voted on,  there’s maybe a very slim chance of moving to LL west and LL east but even that’s going to be strongly opposed by spfl, HL and the top end of the LL.

Having established a nationwide pyramid after years of hassle from the SJFA, Scotland would become the laughingstock of EUFA, if it gave any time to this football fantasy suggestion. 

There is no room for 2 competing/national football associations, and the Scottish FA should quickly kill off this ludicrous suggestion, which would be detrimental to the on-going development of the pyramid.

The only pyramid change which I consider is needed urgently, is to automatically promote the WINNERS of the Highland v Lowland  championship play-off, and relegate SPFL club 42, to Tier 5.

Similarly, SPFL club 41 should participate in play-off against the DEFEATED Highland/Lowland championship play-off, resulting in the defeated club playing at Tier 5 in the Highland or Lowland league, the following season. This would have two significant benefits :

* club movement through the league/non-league pyramid would be accelerated, to the benefit of ambitious clubs and fans

* relegated SPFL Division 2 clubs would have an enhanced opportunity to return to Tier 4 (League Two) thereafter.

If adopted, the system regarding the two clubs finishing bottom of League Two, would mirror the relegation system, currently operating in the SPFL Premiership, in the Championship, and in League One.

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But if clubs are reluctant to increase relegation as it stands, what makes you think clubs would vote for more relegation just because LL2 is created below?
Especially as LL2 would be stronger than the current EOS or WOS Premier given it has the top 8 clubs from each, meaning a relegated LL club would be even more likely to drop straight through into tier 7. Plus, we really don't need another Lowland-wide league in terms of travel.
We just need enough progressive LL clubs to vote for auto promotion for the EOS/WOS winners to speed up clubs finding their level in the pyramid.

My suspicion it’s the free fall clubs go into that is also driving the no votes so that is unavoidable.

Hawick are bottom of EOS Div 3, Whitehill second bottom of EOS Div 2 and Vale of Leithen bottom of the EOS Premier. That’s the last three teams who’ve gone down and they plummet like a stone.

A LL two would at least give the clubs some bigger crowds to stabilise them financially and potentially bring in some investment to stabilise earlier.

*edit by the way I totally agree the best solution is to just have automatic promotion but that’s not happening. The problem is the progressive clubs keep winning the league and that’s losing a vote a year at the moment.
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1 hour ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:


My suspicion it’s the free fall clubs go into that is also driving the no votes so that is unavoidable.

Hawick are bottom of EOS Div 3, Whitehill second bottom of EOS Div 2 and Vale of Leithen bottom of the EOS Premier. That’s the last three teams who’ve gone down and they plummet like a stone.

A LL two would at least give the clubs some bigger crowds to stabilise them financially and potentially bring in some investment to stabilise earlier.

*edit by the way I totally agree the best solution is to just have automatic promotion but that’s not happening. The problem is the progressive clubs keep winning the league and that’s losing a vote a year at the moment.

look totally agree with most points posted here. easier promotion would solve a lot but you can't keep using LL promotion/relegation as a stick to hit them with.spfl 2 clubs need to vote for no play-off theres 4 ex spfl clubs who have struggled to regain promotion back up the others fear the same could happen to them. no sos club wishes to come up threave resigned from the LL one factor for joining the west was they'll keep in the Scottish but will not be subject to promotion  playoff. 

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Some excellent points being made. The Team 42 discussion as always is crucial.  Understand why there all calls to simply move on anyway. However unless I am mistaken,  despite all the major changes to the Pyramid at Tier 5 and below, the play off arrangements for bottom team in SPFL have not changed one iota since the get go.

Guess the bottom line is does everyone below Tier 4 keep accepting ( perhaps grudgingly) more and more change to improve the Pyramid,  whilst intransigence is rewarded.  The longer this has gone on suggest becomes a harder pill to swallow. 

The risible attempt to create a Central Tier 5 League is in my opinion totally counterproductive and will  I suggest make a solution less rather more likely.

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13 minutes ago, ekok said:

despite all the major changes to the Pyramid at Tier 5 and below

The major changes to the Tier 5 (Lowland Pyramid) Playoff has been to add a potential 3rd team lengthening the odds for the Tier 6 teams. As well as to change the permutations ensuring bottom club can be saved from relegation.

While the SPFL2 Playoff as stayed the same. The LL Playoff has become worse.

 

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20 hours ago, Lowland team said:

no south club wishes to join the LL. also not that convinced some of the west teams want to either.their happy playin

Agree with this part of your statement, and within this viewpoint lies a problem.                                  Wherein most of the WOS teams who have no interest in  progressing out of the West are in the lower tiers, all the teams in the SOS who dont wish to proress are in Tier 6. I realise it doesnt seem to impact on the eventual promoted  team, but the fact they are there is an issue that stops the pyramid working functionally.                            The proof is in the pudding, Threave have moved to the West and dropped down to Tier 10, where they have lost 3 games to ex boys clubs, as they are referred to.       The gulf in the standard is stark and quite simply needs addressing.

Also for fairness agree HL/LL playoff winner must be promoted and then at an agreed date both winners are promoted.

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1 hour ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Agree with this part of your statement, and within this viewpoint lies a problem.                                  Wherein most of the WOS teams who have no interest in  progressing out of the West are in the lower tiers, all the teams in the SOS who dont wish to proress are in Tier 6. I realise it doesnt seem to impact on the eventual promoted  team, but the fact they are there is an issue that stops the pyramid working functionally.                            The proof is in the pudding, Threave have moved to the West and dropped down to Tier 10, where they have lost 3 games to ex boys clubs, as they are referred to.       The gulf in the standard is stark and quite simply needs addressing.

Also for fairness agree HL/LL playoff winner must be promoted and then at an agreed date both winners are promoted.

Lots agree with but also so much to disagree with 

I don't believe the level at which the SoS teams play at, really matters at all.

The comments against the SoS teams appears to smack of ego's being hurt - WoS are better than them and they want that recognised !

I don't reckon the WoS premier teams give much thought to the SoS teams at all. They would be the only ones possibly impacted.

To claim that an extra two games is such an issue as to stop the pyramid working functionally is just plain ludicrous.

I do accept that more teams relegated would help enormously and should happen asap.

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*edit by the way I totally agree the best solution is to just have automatic promotion but that’s not happening. The problem is the progressive clubs keep winning the league and that’s losing a vote a year at the moment.


The teams most against extra relegation spots keep getting relegated too though, and mostly the clubs coming down from the SPFL aren't bothered about relegation (though the Shire are testing that this year).

I'd say support for extra relegation is increasing year-on-year.
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33 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

Lots agree with but also so much to disagree with 

I don't believe the level at which the SoS teams play at, really matters at all.

The comments against the SoS teams appears to smack of ego's being hurt - WoS are better than them and they want that recognised !

I don't reckon the WoS premier teams give much thought to the SoS teams at all. They would be the only ones possibly impacted.

To claim that an extra two games is such an issue as to stop the pyramid working functionally is just plain ludicrous.

I do accept that more teams relegated would help enormously and should happen asap.

Vodka, I am not attached to any West team so my thoughts are not that of any team or teams just my personal feelings.

I have a love of non-league and would be happy if the South teams were more competitive against other league's. In fact I personally feel Threave had a case for going into West Premier being at Tier 6.

Its not the level the South play at that is the issue, it's more to do with Geography; the East covers from the Tay to the English Border, South covers D&G. I would like to see the West and South merging solely to make the lowland pyramid more complete. I hope Threave are promoted and find their place in the system, same with Abbey Vale, St.Cuthberts at al.

Just for clarity I live in the Stewartry and would love to see my local teams playing  against the West teams. The Kilsyth and Thorniewood games were so much more enjoyable then the Nithsdale and Mids games in the South Challenge. 

No agenda just a love of football.

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34 minutes ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Vodka, I am not attached to any West team so my thoughts are not that of any team or teams just my personal feelings.

I have a love of non-league and would be happy if the South teams were more competitive against other league's. In fact I personally feel Threave had a case for going into West Premier being at Tier 6.

Its not the level the South play at that is the issue, it's more to do with Geography; the East covers from the Tay to the English Border, South covers D&G. I would like to see the West and South merging solely to make the lowland pyramid more complete. I hope Threave are promoted and find their place in the system, same with Abbey Vale, St.Cuthberts at al.

Just for clarity I live in the Stewartry and would love to see my local teams playing  against the West teams. The Kilsyth and Thorniewood games were so much more enjoyable then the Nithsdale and Mids games in the South Challenge. 

No agenda just a love of football.

I always assume that any comment made on a forum is only ever a personal view - as is mine.

No matter which league a team plays in, they will always find their appropriate level.

To move teams from one association to another simply on the basis that geography would make it neater, just does not make sense.

Teams in the SoS league have enough issues moving back and forth along the A75 corridor without the not inconsiderable  additional travel involved within the Wos league setup.

If the SoS teams are happy to be in that league setup then leave them be - they only interact occasionally with the other leagues in any case.

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On 05/11/2022 at 16:58, VodkaTap said:

I always assume that any comment made on a forum is only ever a personal view - as is mine.

No matter which league a team plays in, they will always find their appropriate level.

To move teams from one association to another simply on the basis that geography would make it neater, just does not make sense.

Teams in the SoS league have enough issues moving back and forth along the A75 corridor without the not inconsiderable  additional travel involved within the Wos league setup.

If the SoS teams are happy to be in that league setup then leave them be - they only interact occasionally with the other leagues in any case.

I am up and down to Newton a lot from various directions so know the roads well.  It is a large area that is covered but you can be in Ayr from Newton in not much over an hour and in Lanrkshire within 2. Considering the SoS sides are more than likely to end up in the same lower division were there a merger, you'd be talking about a handful of trips into greater Glasgow area with the status quo every other week. Threave have already taken the plunge; if Saints for example follow, who would be next? It already seems to resemble the East Juniors -> EoS trickle led by Kelty.

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On 05/11/2022 at 15:25, VodkaTap said:

Lots agree with but also so much to disagree with 
This is what is ideal about debates, talking about views, reason behind views and change if other information become known

I don't believe the level at which the SoS teams play at, really matters at all.
Right now, it's not the most important problem in the pyramid structure but it still is a factor or, actually will be a factor if more teams are relegated from the Lowland per season 


The comments against the SoS teams appears to smack of ego's being hurt - WoS are better than them and they want that recognised !
You have read some posts from posters where your probably right and to be fair, I have read many similar but some of us look at it all objectively and can see problems that are or can or will happen in the future with the weak SOSF league taking up a possible when they are such a weak league.  If SOSFL is to continue it MUST be allowed to have their teams access to promotion but not at tier 6


I don't reckon the WoS premier teams give much thought to the SoS teams at all. They would be the only ones possibly impacted.
Think most are too busy worrying about their own team and season in their own league and or association etc so I would agree with you there

 

To claim that an extra two games is such an issue as to stop the pyramid working functionally is just plain ludicrous.
It's not the two games that is the issue, it's the space it takes up.
Obviously we require the Lowland league to open up their relegation to have, 3 relegated per season, If we get the lowland league to at least have two teams automatically relegated, and two teams promoted into the Lowland league, personally it should be from the EOSFL and the WOSFL champions. This is why I think there should only be Two in Teir 6, making it easy when lowland relegates 2 automatically.  P.s if we get 3 relegated then the runner sup or both EOSFL and WOSGL should playoff to see who goes up or for more excitement the 3rd bottom of the lowland league come into a 3 way playoff.   

This conversation has rolled many times but nearly everyone is in agreement the SOSFL teams are not tier level 6 teams

 

I do accept that more teams relegated would help enormously and should happen asap.
We are in agreement there but as stated above this does bring problems lower down that needs resolved

 

P.S an added note
I believe every area in Scotland regarding football teams should be allocated a designated association due to their location. No way should team in Glasgow BE ABLE to join the SOSFL or a team in West Lothian be able to join the WOSFL. Designated borders need to be forced and secured and every team in the country knows what league they will enter if relegated down a division from the Lowland and for that matter the Highland league.   I am definitely against a Teir 6 - Lowland 2 league

Hopefully my post is conveyed in the way it was intended so happy reading

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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My proposal:

  • Split the Lowland League into LL East and LL West with 16 clubs each.
  • To increase the membership of the LL, invite applications from licensed clubs at the end of a transition season.
  • Among the applicant clubs, calculate a coefficient as follows: Number of clubs you finished above in your league / total number of opponents in your league. For example, finishing 4th in the 12 team SoSFL would make your coefficient 8/11 = 0.727. Finishing 4th in the 79 team WoSFL would make your coefficient 75/78 = 0.96. All three champions would have a coefficient of 1.
  • Suspend relegation in the LL for that year, then admit the 15-17 (depending on the result of the SPFL playoff) applicant clubs with the highest coefficient to the LL.
  • Form the two LL divisions without fixed borders. Clubs can move between divisions from one year to the next.
  • The SPFL playoff is expanded only slightly. All three tier 5 champions + club 42 would be drawn into two-legged ties. The winners would then play for the SPFL spot. This could be played in the normal time window for SPFL playoffs, allowing the LL/HL to end their seasons two weeks later than they do now.
  • Promotion/relegation between the LL and the tier 6 leagues would be expanded. The last place club in each division would be relegated, replaced by the champions of the EoSFL and the WoSFL (if licensed).
  • The 2nd from last clubs in each LL division would enter a round robin playoff with the champions of the SoSFL and the runners-up of the EoSFL and WoSFL (again, if licensed). In a normal year the top two would promote/stay in the LL, but this number could fall to as low as one or as much as all five depending on the results of the SPFL playoff and whether the EoSFL/WoSFL champions are licensed.

Advantages:

  • Balances the tier 5 regions more fairly.
  • The SPFL would hopefully be okay with it because it only slightly increases the chance of relegation.
  • The Highland League should be okay with it because it essentially has no impact on them.
  • The Lowland League should be okay with it because it only slightly increases the chance of relegation while not affecting the chance of promotion. If you factor in that the LL divisions will be weaker, then if anything promotion chances are increased and relegation chances are decreased. Also the LL gets the benefit of no relegation for one year.
  • The SoSFL is placed in a more fair position compared to the EoSFL, but they get to remain at tier 6 and still have about the same chance of promotion to the LL as before.
  • The pyramid playoffs can be moved back two weeks because club 42 doesn't have to wait. As a result, the HL/LL won't have to end their seasons before everyone else.
  • Reduced travel/expenses for LL clubs.
  • Helps to fix the backlog of strong clubs stuck in the WoSFL/EoSFL.

The main objection I see is that the existing tier 5+ clubs won't want to see their SFA voting power diluted. One resolution is to reduce the voting power of tier 5 clubs (maybe they only get 2/3rds of a vote), but I can't see the HL going for this. As a compromise, perhaps only the top 8 clubs in each LL division get to vote for the following year, or all LL clubs get to vote but their vote only counts for half.

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Oh ffs, my head is hurting reading all that, ill dissect it later and share my views of it, and I'm sure you'll wait with baited breath.

Bojan, wtf has the West got to do with it

It's about a functioning Scottish football Pyramid, we have that at this moment which is fantastic but the problem is that its slow in certain areas and needs sorted,  (SPFL 2 relegation and the LL promotion and relegation and promotion to LL and, I suppose promotion to the Highland league), It was the same before the West joined and the same after the West joined, the only difference is that now that any team CAN get promoted through the division's but again as stated above, a lot slower than we all want or wanted.

Right now the WOSFL, EOSFL and SOSFL cannot do anything to change the current dynamic with the SPFL 2 relegation and the LL promotion and relegation, they never have been able to do anything about it in the past either.

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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