Amateur Football Reconstruction

[stanley]

1 minute ago, Gazzah said:

If people think merging all sorts of leagues will save amateur then they are kidding on. It’s slowly dying a death due to numerous reasons and personally im not sure it can be stopped give it 5 years and will be about 200 team’s maximum imo .  The 20s league and the east of Scotland/west of Scotland leagues have had a major impact. The generation now playing 35s are the ones who were committed etc. the generation coming through 16-20 is very worrying for grassroots football as it’s well down the list of priorities for them. 

I don't think it will save the game but it will end up being the only option for some of the leagues as the numbers continue to decline. If you look at HJ's stats on the rate of decline, you're probably right that it will end up at 200 clubs in a few years time. It's a pity there aren't more young people willing to commit to playing each week. I wonder if the decline will eventually level out or just continue for years.

[Gazzah]

2 minutes ago, stanley said:

I don't think it will save the game but it will end up being the only option for some of the leagues as the numbers continue to decline. If you look at HJ's stats on the rate of decline, you're probably right that it will end up at 200 clubs in a few years time. It's a pity there aren't more young people willing to commit to playing each week. I wonder if the decline will eventually level out or just continue for years.

Having been involved for the last 15 years in welfare and now ammies I think it will continue to drop. There is the occasional few youth players come through but nothing to sustain teams. The 20s league is a killer for it most playing that will never make The clubs first team and are used to a Friday night by time it’s over and want Saturdays free. 

[Redondo]

15 minutes ago, Gazzah said:

If people think merging all sorts of leagues will save amateur then they are kidding on. It’s slowly dying a death due to numerous reasons and personally im not sure it can be stopped give it 5 years and will be about 200 team’s maximum imo .  The 20s league and the east of Scotland/west of Scotland leagues have had a major impact. The generation now playing 35s are the ones who were committed etc. the generation coming through 16-20 is very worrying for grassroots football as it’s well down the list of priorities for them. 

Be aswell chucking it the now then! #buzzkill

[Amateur Footie Fan]

4 hours ago, stanley said:

Pretty sure it's only 14 Scottish AFL teams now as Hillington have resigned. Currently looking at 31 teams in the Central Scottish/Scottish and 28 in the Caledonian for next season I believe.

 

According to central's website they have 9 in premier, but Drum to Cali leaves 8. They have 10 in the championship but Dunipace to Cali and possibly 1, maybe 2 to the GGPL leaves 8 so a total of 16 teams in the central. Add the fact that safl may be at 14 but again another couple are moving to GGPL so don't think they will have 31 although they maybe have other clubs applying to them, who knows. I stick by my initial thoughts that to take in maybe 14 teams to get possibly 2 good teams seems a bit like a numbers game instead of quality. I know of a committee member from a central premier team who tells me all the teams are getting calls from central committee trying to convince teams to stay. Sounds like they're panicking to me.

[Redondo]

Its inevitable that teams will continue to fall but having a Central league reconstructure like the 1 suggested could possibly slow the bleeding and if successful could be the way forward to re energize and grow the ammie game again. 

If the Caley league think the addition of a handfull of teams who with the exception of 1 havent done anything of any note in the ammie game recently makes them a stronger more appealing league there up a gum tree!!

[Gaf]

Allot of good and valid points made on this topic. The Caledonian League look to have added a few good additions where the Central League seem to be losing some and I hear it may not be the end of that. People will have a preference of both the Central and The Caledonian but you have to wonder has that merger with Central and SAFL made that league stronger? Also seen a few teams advertise that they have joined the Stirling & District. We could go around in circles all day about whats best for the game and everyone will have their own opinion and rightfully so. I don't think the issue of merging league together saves amateur football. Guys have changed, it's not how it used to be and that's right across society with everything nowadays. Do the clubs do enough to keep their players engaged and loyal to make them want to play football or is it a case of that's my best team and that's that. Work commitments, women, days out with the lads are all more important these days and each to their own, if that's what guys prefer. Saturday morning leagues are a big hit as guys can then go and watch the team they support or spend time with their families. Youngsters all want the under 20 league. Any sniff a player gets to the East or West of Scotland leagues and their off, where years ago not just any player would have got to that level. I notice Redondo refers to the Caley League about adding teams that have done nothing!!! What is it you want them to do? If you haven't done anything does that mean you shouldn't want to progress?? Again we will all have our own opinions and should be entitled to them. If you go back and look at the number of clubs pre covid and look at how the numbers have dropped since then, thats for me where the change has seriously  happened. Guys haven't missed it enough. People will always look out for their own interests and rightfully so, thats how a club survives, I don't think anyone should be criticised for that. I also think people will look at how to better things but in reality will never happen.

[Crazy Feet]

17 hours ago, Redondo said:

Its inevitable that teams will continue to fall but having a Central league reconstructure like the 1 suggested could possibly slow the bleeding and if successful could be the way forward to re energize and grow the ammie game again. 

If the Caley league think the addition of a handfull of teams who with the exception of 1 havent done anything of any note in the ammie game recently makes them a stronger more appealing league there up a gum tree!!

The clubs the Caledonian League are looking to attract and bring in, albeit maybe not very top amateur teams at the moment (Drum Ams aside), it is all clubs who have good facilities and an infrastructure behind the amateur team from youth level all the way up to amateur football. So you can see what they are trying to do with the teams they are bringing in.

[Crazy Feet]

17 hours ago, Gazzah said:

Having been involved for the last 15 years in welfare and now ammies I think it will continue to drop. There is the occasional few youth players come through but nothing to sustain teams. The 20s league is a killer for it most playing that will never make The clubs first team and are used to a Friday night by time it’s over and want Saturdays free. 

 

A switch to summer football and the potential for Friday Evening games would go a long way to saving the amateur game imo. Young boys just don't want to give up their full Saturday afternoon every week anymore, society has changed and the genie isn't going back in the bottle. The amatuer game needs to adapt.

[Redondo]

I'll elaborate on that point Gaf,

This whole episode has began with Central & Caley officials having talks of a merger which to my knowledge was initially all positive and was followed up by further meetings. 

A vote between member Clubs then quashed the idea, again to my knowledge this was more from the Caley Clubs who were against the idea of the merger and possibly a few committee guys who couldnt agree on who would get what title!?

Since then its seems to have developed into a tit for tat rivalry between 2 of the biggest Associations in Amateur football, teams jumping ship left, right and centre along with the wee snidey comment here and there on social media (nothing sinister i may add).

My point being is the Caley have since added teams and may see that as getting 1 over on the Central especially with the Drum moving back there but these teams are not stronger than what the Central will be bringing in from the SAFL imo.

So , itll be more or less a status quo for Amateur football in the central belt, the Central will still reign supreme over there Caley counterparts for the forseeable future but the Caley can put claim to being the best run league whos teams have the best facilities etc etc.

Nothing much else will change until another big batch of teams fall by the way side and a merge is forced, by then itll probably be too late and all interest/hope will be gone!

[stanley]

9 hours ago, Gaf said:

Allot of good and valid points made on this topic. The Caledonian League look to have added a few good additions where the Central League seem to be losing some and I hear it may not be the end of that. People will have a preference of both the Central and The Caledonian but you have to wonder has that merger with Central and SAFL made that league stronger? Also seen a few teams advertise that they have joined the Stirling & District. We could go around in circles all day about whats best for the game and everyone will have their own opinion and rightfully so. I don't think the issue of merging league together saves amateur football. Guys have changed, it's not how it used to be and that's right across society with everything nowadays. Do the clubs do enough to keep their players engaged and loyal to make them want to play football or is it a case of that's my best team and that's that. Work commitments, women, days out with the lads are all more important these days and each to their own, if that's what guys prefer. Saturday morning leagues are a big hit as guys can then go and watch the team they support or spend time with their families. Youngsters all want the under 20 league. Any sniff a player gets to the East or West of Scotland leagues and their off, where years ago not just any player would have got to that level. I notice Redondo refers to the Caley League about adding teams that have done nothing!!! What is it you want them to do? If you haven't done anything does that mean you shouldn't want to progress?? Again we will all have our own opinions and should be entitled to them. If you go back and look at the number of clubs pre covid and look at how the numbers have dropped since then, thats for me where the change has seriously  happened. Guys haven't missed it enough. People will always look out for their own interests and rightfully so, thats how a club survives, I don't think anyone should be criticised for that. I also think people will look at how to better things but in reality will never happen.

Which teams are joining the Stirling & District? The majority of clubs from that catchment area are now in the Caledonian League. Can only really see Bannockburn, Steins and Dunipace (joining the Caley) in the Central Scottish from that catchment area. Lots of tweets on the Stirling Twitter page advertising for new clubs.

 

Edit: Tullibody St. Serf's look like one of the new teams.

Edited February 21, 2023 by stanley

[Gazzah]

9 hours ago, Gaf said:

Allot of good and valid points made on this topic. The Caledonian League look to have added a few good additions where the Central League seem to be losing some and I hear it may not be the end of that. People will have a preference of both the Central and The Caledonian but you have to wonder has that merger with Central and SAFL made that league stronger? Also seen a few teams advertise that they have joined the Stirling & District. We could go around in circles all day about whats best for the game and everyone will have their own opinion and rightfully so. I don't think the issue of merging league together saves amateur football. Guys have changed, it's not how it used to be and that's right across society with everything nowadays. Do the clubs do enough to keep their players engaged and loyal to make them want to play football or is it a case of that's my best team and that's that. Work commitments, women, days out with the lads are all more important these days and each to their own, if that's what guys prefer. Saturday morning leagues are a big hit as guys can then go and watch the team they support or spend time with their families. Youngsters all want the under 20 league. Any sniff a player gets to the East or West of Scotland leagues and their off, where years ago not just any player would have got to that level. I notice Redondo refers to the Caley League about adding teams that have done nothing!!! What is it you want them to do? If you haven't done anything does that mean you shouldn't want to progress?? Again we will all have our own opinions and should be entitled to them. If you go back and look at the number of clubs pre covid and look at how the numbers have dropped since then, thats for me where the change has seriously  happened. Guys haven't missed it enough. People will always look out for their own interests and rightfully so, thats how a club survives, I don't think anyone should be criticised for that. I also think people will look at how to better things but in reality will never happen.

Good post and agree on most points. After covid was the perfect time to revert to summer football too

[pleslie99]

2 hours ago, Redondo said:

the Central will still reign supreme over there Caley counterparts

I have to disagree here to an extent. Ok the central have had the strongest top teams for the recent past however, nowadays it’s very much 3/4 teams that are head and shoulders above the rest in their respective league. St Pats, castlemilk dynamo, lesmahagow and Bannockburn (only 1 of them are left in the Scottish) are arguably the strongest with everyone else fighting it out for the rest of the spots, that’s unlikely to change with the introduction of the safl teams. In the caley the top division is extremely competitive with all teams able to beat each other. Drumchapel, dunipace, Stenhousemuir and Alva will all fancy their chances of being promoted at the 1st opportunity and being competitive in the top tier. It’s an argument that could and will go on forever. What’s not up for debate is the facilities in the Caley are top notch in comparison to anywhere else and the running of the Caley makes it a much more attractive league.

[Redondo]

Time will tell i suppose.

Can I ask what the Caley do differently that makes them a better run league?

I would always have thought teams would have wanted to challenge there self against the best teams and as you said the Central have the top teams. Facilities...well for a large part of the season teams are using schools/sports centres for astros not there own facilities so thats not a massive pull.

Are these teams joining the Caley because they think they have a better chance of progressing up the leagues and challenging for trophies, maybe thats a more realistic reason for choosing the Caley?

The 4 teams you mention and I'd say Castlemilk OBC are really strong and there all in the Central so for me its still the strongest league. 

[Gaf]

I read your last two posts and notice you make a point about it being tit for tat between the two leagues. You'll also mention about one being better than the other. Then you state that The Central will reign Supreme for years to come. What do you base that on currently. As I said previous post will the standard be better with their new set up? Surely more traveling too which would put boys off. Am I not right in saying The Caledonian League unanimously rejected the merger? I don't see that as running away from a challenge, maybe they just enjoy their league. You would have to ask what the Caledonian League does differently to get that answer. Also maybe ask why so many teams either leave or fold from Central or any other league for that matter. No doubt about it St Patrick's have been the dominant team in the Central for a good while now, probably a step above everyone else. I do however see Bannockburn running them close so far this season. Two of the most decorated clubs in that league. Apart from that though who else seriously challenges them. In the past Harestanes, Collville Park added to what was no doubt the best in the country back then. Again 4 clubs with great history and a ton of titles between them. I don't see much between the league nowadays. As you say though, time will tell

 

 

 

 

[Redondo]

The Caley does have some of the longest standing amateur clubs with great history, thats a fact. What do the Caley league do differently? I dont know , from the outside looking in it doesnt look like too much but maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

[Crazy Feet]

Will The Central still be the place to be when St Pats leave to join the WOSFL?

[Crazy Feet]

8 hours ago, Redondo said:

The Caley does have some of the longest standing amateur clubs with great history, thats a fact. What do the Caley league do differently? I dont know , from the outside looking in it doesnt look like too much but maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

I don't think it's a particularly well run league anymore than the others from what I know. It has the most established clubs and best facilities but that doesn't equate to being a well run league so I know what you are saying.

Of the amateur leagues I'd actually say the SMAFA and Sunday/35s Leagues are better run with more progressive ideas than The Caley/Central. Just small things like using an APP for the teamlines, and issuing fixtures weeks in advance allowing teams to plan etc. Small things but they make a difference.

Longer term, I think the afternoon amateur leagues need to adapt and become more flexible with their kick off times and even days. Saturday morning is thriving because of the kick off times, and the Over 35s is thriving because they play on a Friday night. These both give the participants the opportunity to play football but still have a lot of flexibility and time to do other things with their weekends also, from family to other social / work commitments. This is the main issue the afternoon leagues seem to be missing and simple mergers of leagues do not fix.

[Redondo]

1 hour ago, Crazy Feet said:

Will The Central still be the place to be when St Pats leave to join the WOSFL?

Is that a factual comment or speculation. 

If the case where are they going to play out of?

[Beetlejucie]

On 20/02/2023 at 21:49, Amateur Footie Fan said:

 I stick by my initial thoughts that to take in maybe 14 teams to get possibly 2 good teams seems a bit like a numbers game instead of quality. 

You need to elaborate on this idea that adding the SAFL teams to the central league is just for numbers and only 2 teams are up to the central standard? I'm involved in the central league and can see good number of teams in the SAFL which will make the merge overall more competitive and good strength in numbers.  I would say the following Arthurlie, Lochgilphead Red Star, Glyn Hill, Port Glasgow ams, Neilston, Dunoon and Baljaffray are all good sides and can hold there own. Then you've got parkhall, Kings Park, Busby who are hot and cold. good teams but very inconsistent. 

I understand you get your top teams in amateur football but to say teams are just being added for numbers and nothing else is disrespectful. 

 

[Gaf]

On 21/02/2023 at 22:48, Redondo said:

The Caley does have some of the longest standing amateur clubs with great history, thats a fact. What do the Caley league do differently? I dont know , from the outside looking in it doesnt look like too much but maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

Looking at the teams who have joined the Caledonian League this season, I think the two clubs you would need to ask that question is both Drumchapel and Dunipace. Those two clubs are moving away from the Central to join the Caledonian. Drumchapel with a great history and sitting in 4th position within the Premier Division. I could be wrong but is this the Drumchapel team, who used to be in the Caledonian? Dunipace sitting top of the division below within their first season.  I see the set up they have is also quite good. I think any league would welcome any of those two teams into their set up and could say they make it stronger. Stenhousemuir are back in the league after a year out and by looking at previous league they finished quite high before taking a year out. Giffnock Soccer Club is a new one for me, i've never heard of them but again id imagine they have been well looked into. Riverside one of two teams moving from the Stirling & District and i'd imagine they will be looking to attract better player in a more competitive league. The only worry for them is Milton, Cambusbarron, Doune, Dunblane & Bannockburn are all from around that area too. Alva I see are top of the Premier and sitting in the East Semi Final, so again could be a good addition.

From the other side why did Holytown move from Caledonian to Central? You raised a point about how you feel the handful of teams hadn't made the Caledonian better and what have they done. Fair play to Holytown for keeping going, rock bottom with a goal difference of -102. Last seasons back to back east winners and Scottish runners up Fallin, what did they do in their previous league before making the move. Nothing startling but the move made them one of the best teams in the country. Now them along with the other finalists, cant mind their name, no longer exist.