Cutting the Old Firms Allocation

[wastecoatwilly]

18 minutes ago, Doctor Sanchez said:

Giving tickets away free to local schools is a ploy thats been going on for decades. I remember getting a couple of tickets to Love St and I'm older than time itself.

So it worked then,the Germans have it spot on with ticket pricing.

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, Jinky67 said:

Or just sell more to your own supporters by reducing the ticket prices or If you are going to cut away allocations and take the hit on revenue then surely it’s even better giving away free tickets to schools, local football teams etc to try grow the fan base, maybe you do this already? 

There’s plenty of initiative at Aberdeen. 

Aberdna junior gives kids free membership to the club including two free games a season with other stuff thrown in. Every club will have ways to entice the younger generation. 

Whatever you do though it’s a difficult battle to win young kids away from sky sports and the really elite level football that is available everywhere. 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

If your financial business model is built upon getting as many horrible bigotted c***s £s, you’ve got an unworkable financial business model.

And you’re probably a horrible bigotted c**t.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

6 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

If your financial business model is built upon getting as many horrible bigotted c***s £s, you’ve got an unworkable financial business model.

And you’re probably a horrible bigotted c**t.

Absolute state of a post.

1. It’s ‘bigoted’.

2. I don’t think anyone’s ‘financial business model’ relies on it. In St Johnstone’s case it probably pays for an extra player’s wages for the year. Maybe even two. It’s the kind of business model that’s enabled us to win more trophies in the last decade than many bigger clubs.

3. Ideally this wouldn’t be the case, and the ground would be filled with Saints fans. Hearts have been able to do this. St Mirren have a smaller ground and for this particular game were able to get more fans through the gates - will be interesting to see if this is the case in future games between the pair. 

4. I’ve no idea how this makes anyone a ‘horrible bigoted c**t’ - absolutely bizarre comment tbh. At clubs like Saints, Livi etc. the boards have to make difficult decisions to get the balance right between maximising revenue and keeping the home fans happy. If we only gave the Old Firm fans one stand, I don’t think it would make much difference to the number of home fans in attendance. I’d personally prefer we locked them all out, but I can understand the club are trying to compete at the highest level. A large part of the reason we are where we are is good financial management.
 

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

6 hours ago, jamamafegan said:

 

Following St. Mirren’s excellent win against Celtic yesterday, many of the Paisley faithful are hailing the change in atmosphere at the match after the St Mirren board had decided to slash the Old Firms away fan allocation from two stands to one. Some fans are suggesting that the decision to do this may even have had a positive impact on the outcome of the game, on the mentality of the home side, as there were more home fans cheering their team on and less of a presence was felt from the Celtic fans.

 

I’ve always been an advocate for teams cutting the Old Firms away allocation. There is nothing worse than sitting at the home of your own club with half of the stadium or more dominated by thousands of Old Firm fans singing their bigoted songs and making their presence very much felt. St. Johnstone are one of the worst offenders for OF allocations. In the not so distant past, 3 stands have been allocated to the OF. More often than not this basically turns it into a home game for the opposition and Saints are rolled over, hammered by several goals. The thousands of OF fans lord it over and revel in the toxic atmosphere they create, breaking into their bigoted songs. So vile is the situation that I never consider going to these games. I don’t believe I am the only person who refuses to go these games for this reason.

 

Quite often the argument of money is brought up. Clubs seemingly rely on a blue or green pound to get by. I simply don’t accept this. The St. Mirren board must be commended for their decision. They knew they would potentially lose out on a significant amount of money but they listened to their own fans and have decided to try and reap the rewards of the long game - ie by attracting more people to support their local team and not putting them off. This time it may have worked, with St Mirren fans saying there was only a difference of 256 odd fans compared to the same fixture last season when Celtic had 2 stands (if I’ve got that right, correct me if I’m wrong).

 

It’s got me thinking, what clubs in the top flight should be cutting the OF’s allocation? I know Hearts, Hibs and Kilmarnock have all reduced OF allocations to either 1 stand or half a stand but I don’t know if they have persisted with this? I’d like to see St Johnstone give the OF one stand behind the goal only. Livingston give away pretty much their entire stadium away to the OF (and Edinburgh clubs as well). Motherwell give them that massive stand behind the goal which towers over the stadium and holds 4000 odd fans. Does this bother Well fans? How would you feel if you were given the option to claim that stand as your own and give the away fans the stand behind the opposite goal instead? Dundee United often give the OF fans ‘the shed’ - are they happy with the current allocation setup?

 

As I said on another thread earlier, I think it’s time clubs grew a backbone and started slashing the OF allocation for good. Celtic and Rangers already have a massive advantage financially to the rest of us and it doesn’t make sense that we should be giving them an even bigger advantage by turning our stadiums into Old Firm away day party dens.

 

 

We give 3 stands to the erse cheeks, and if you think we could afford losing 2 stands worth of revenue for 3 or 4 home games against them you're not thinking very logically and letting the hatred for the unwashed blind you. We'd never make that up with home fans either, so it would be a massive loss to our board doing that. It's simple really, if our fanbase grows we'd not need to give them as much, untill it happens, or ever does, it is what it is and needs must.

We might not like it but we're not the ones who'd be making hundreds of thousands of pounds of a loss in revenue, every club will make the choice that is best for them, as will Livingston.

 

Hibs get one stand, Hearts prob a stand and a half, plus the corners, basically as much as they can fill.

 

I don't believe it disadvantages us on the pitch though, our players have done pretty well against Celtic, and Hibs, and although not so well against Sevco and Hearts, we've still played well enough. We were outnumbered by 30,000 in a cup final against Hibs too and still won, so we're used to away/opposition fans having bigger supports than us.

Edited September 19, 2022 by LIVIFOREVER

[Clown Job]

My days of regularly travelling to away games are long over now, so I don’t really care either way

As long as they give the minimum required 

I do laugh at the bitterness of some people though, more interested in “hurting” the travelling support than see the potential benefit it would have to the club.

[lubo_blaha]

It's sometimes hard to separate the 'does the cutting the allocation help produce better results' or 'are more Hibs fans buying tickets precisely because we're more likely to beat them'.
Spoiler

Hibs' home record against Celtic since returning to the top flight in 2017:
December 2017, Hibs 2-2 Celtic, full stand for Celtic.
April 2018, Hibs 2-1 Celtic, full stand for Celtic, but a sell-out crowd in the home end.
December 2018, Hibs 2-0 Celtic, half stand for Celtic.
March 2019, Hibs 0-2 Celtic, full stand for Celtic (Scottish Cup requirement, I think).
April 2019, Hibs 0-0 Celtic, full stand for Celtic
And then from then on, it's been a full stand for Celtic:
2019, 1-1 draw.
2020, 2-2 draw (COVIDball).
2021, 0-0 draw (COVIDball).
2021, 3-1 defeat.
2022, 0-0 draw.

The recent record with Celtic having a half stand:
P1, W1 D0 L0

The recent record with Celtic having a full stand:
P7 W1 D4 L2
The recent behind-close-doors record:
P2 W0 D2 L0
Having written that out, it's obviously not an exact correlation and it doesn't equal causation, but when Celtic had half their usual capacity, we won. Even during a bit of a tailspin under Lennon. When we give them a full stand, we can often match them, but more often than not we end up losing.

We used to win at Easter road regularly when we only got half a stand. Our record has been poorer since they allowed away fans in both sides, although there are other significant factors at play there.

As a side note, I’ve noticed that Dundee United no longer give us the Shed but are quite happy to sell it to the cheeks.

[djchapsticks]

Our situation was a lot more fortunate than it is for some others.

We generally carry a home fan base of 4,000 which with such a small stadium, means that we'll very rarely have <50% of full seats in a match. So we do have a comparatively decent turnout vs capacity situation.

The long-term problem of that though is that unlike Killie, Motherwell etc, we've nowhere to dump excess OF supporters. So something had to give...do you carry on giving them an allocation that truth be told, they should have never received in the first place and taking the money whilst you're in top league, or do you play the long game, try and draw in supporters and make it more sustainable in building our own fanbase up?

Although on the surface and to most OF fans looked like we voted out of spite, it was a very real issue that a great many fans behind the goals, fans who take their kids to a safe, sanitised matchday atmosphere were being told to shift out for three matches a season and the vast majority of displaced fans, understandably just wouldn't bother going at all. We argued that the presence of these supporters at home matches would offset in the long term, the need to let the away support fill two stands.

Indeed, I think I calculated it in pre-season that it would only take an extra 250-300 ST sales to offset the revenue generated by the extra stand completely. A good season built on this foundation could well see this sort of increase in uptake in 2023/24 (around 8-10%)

Obviously, winning yesterday was a perfect tonic to compliment the decision. There will be several kids in the crowd who've never saw SMFC play Rangers or Celtic for reasons listed above and would have left on a massive high and hopefully be hooked. Indeed, my stepdaughter's little girl, who is 10, recently started coming to Saints matches with me. She's been to three matches this season and loves it but I kept her out the way yesterday. She went round to her dad's to watch the game and when I spoke to her today, she said she was sitting silently smirking and cheering when we won and her favourite player even before yesterday was Mark O'Hara who she now totally loves (her dad supports Celtic and she didn't want to annoy him by openly cheering for us) but she wasn't even there and got a buzz from it - she's now asked if she can take my ST for the Livi game as she wants to go back and knows I'll be on holiday, so my own dad has agreed he'll take her on the 1st. This will be her 4th Saints match and she's already a supporter and I love the fact that she's so into it. I've explained to her that winning every week is not a guarantee and supporting Saints you'll go through some hard times but you'll appreciate the good times a whole lot more than when you go expecting to win and usually do.

And that's the sort of situations and stories that I think most of us hoped would happen by making this decision and improving matchday experience in general. You are severely hindered in doing so by rolling over and giving them as many tickets as they want as in my opinion, it makes you look like you're willing to be second best and propped up by them. Are we ever going to be world beaters? Nah, of course not but it's massively important to have local clubs be the number one priority in the eyes of the local community, that is the one thing you can work to improve.

[djchapsticks]

15 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

 

I do laugh at the bitterness of some people though, more interested in “hurting” the travelling support than see the potential benefit it would have to the club.

Long term vs short term.

Decisions that lead to an extra 300 ST sales outweighs the need for two stands. You can't have both either, the implications of one will directly affect the other either way. 

So you pick the potential of 300 extra of your own support rather than rolling out red carpet to those who resent your existence.

[capt_oats]

15 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You reduced Rangers' allocation further for the play-off in 2015.

That turned out ok.

True but funny as that game was and their seethe around it we were 3-1 up having played them at Ibrox where we only had 950 in a 50k stadium.

Anyway, there were plenty more **** in the home end as was shown in the videos of them walking away when Cammy Bell happened.

Ultimately we have a 4,825 cap stand to accommodate away fans and 8,917 seats across 3 stands for home fans so it'd be fairly daft not to fill it if there's demand. It's literally what it was designed for. Hearts have sold it out recently as well IIRC.

As it goes we've been gradually building our ST base and recently our home support has been hitting 5k which is growth on where we were. Given that uptick and the good work the club have been doing on that front suggests that we're on the right track.

Our position is clear on the subject and Burrows eloquently made the case for why we're not going back to giving the OF an extra allocation in the thread below:

Edited September 20, 2022 by capt_oats

[Melanius Mullarkey]

52 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Absolute state of a post.

1. It’s ‘bigoted’.

2. I don’t think anyone’s ‘financial business model’ relies on it. In St Johnstone’s case it probably pays for an extra player’s wages for the year. Maybe even two. It’s the kind of business model that’s enabled us to win more trophies in the last decade than many bigger clubs.

3. Ideally this wouldn’t be the case, and the ground would be filled with Saints fans. Hearts have been able to do this. St Mirren have a smaller ground and for this particular game were able to get more fans through the gates - will be interesting to see if this is the case in future games between the pair. 

4. I’ve no idea how this makes anyone a ‘horrible bigoted c**t’ - absolutely bizarre comment tbh. At clubs like Saints, Livi etc. the boards have to make difficult decisions to get the balance right between maximising revenue and keeping the home fans happy. If we only gave the Old Firm fans one stand, I don’t think it would make much difference to the number of home fans in attendance. I’d personally prefer we locked them all out, but I can understand the club are trying to compete at the highest level. A large part of the reason we are where we are is good financial management.
 

 

Pish.

[djchapsticks]

4 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

 

Our position is clear on the subject and Burrows eloquently made the case for why we're not going back to giving the OF an extra allocation in the thread below:

Interesting thread.

I find it absolutely compelling that the almost trope-level line trotted out by Rangers and Celtic supporters is 'it looks bad on TV and doesn't sell our game' and 'think of all that lovely money we'd be giving you to improve your squad and make you a better team' as if we should be thankful for their benevolence and altruistic concern at the situation and it's not just a thinly disguised temper tantrum of 'we should get as many tickets as we want' tactfully wrapped up as genuine concern for the state of the Scottish game. 

Particularly as one of those two sets of fans in the last 10 years advocated mass boycott and the death of Scottish football by starvation (which went well) but now have had a change of heart and want to selflessly fill every seat, not for their benefit of course, but for ours.

How heartwarming...

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

11 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Pish.

Stick to what you’re good at in future - posting Kenneths and that. 

[wastecoatwilly]

54 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

So you pick the potential of 300 extra of your own support rather than rolling out red carpet to those who resent your existence.

Very strange post,talk to home fans all the time never have any problems,going to away games are much better than home games.
Most away fans go straight onto buses,sometimes we stay have something to eat with one or two drinks there is a myth about away fans.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

48 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Stick to what you’re good at in future - posting Kenneths and that. 

Your board literally whored out your club shop for the green pound. 
 

Sit down.

[flood]

Killie only give the old firm one stand now

made a big difference at game against Celtic after game, when we did not have to meet a stand full when we were exiting stadium 

[Flybhoy]

5 minutes ago, flood said:

Killie only give the old firm one stand now

made a big difference at game against Celtic after game, when we did not have to meet a stand full when we were exiting stadium 

In fairness the game a few weeks ago most of the Kilmarnock supporters had fucked off by half time so you were never meeting thousands of Celtic fans exiting the stadium anyway. 

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

32 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Your board literally whored out your club shop for the green pound. 
 

Sit down.

I don’t support St Mirren, but good one nonetheless 

[djchapsticks]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Very strange post,talk to home fans all the time never have any problems,going to away games are much better than home games.
Most away fans go straight onto buses,sometimes we stay have something to eat with one or two drinks there is a myth about away fans.

What is strange about it?

In a straight choice between appealing to try and bring in several hundred new long-term fans per season for the club or to instead forego any chance of that to roll out a stand to 1,600 of another club's fans for 3-4 games a season, dependant on league position and whether you're even in the league, it's an absolute no-brainer.

I don't care if the travelling fans from Celtic or Rangers are impeccably behaved, the decision to put our own clubs support ahead of yours to try and draw in long-term supporters is not a difficult one, nor should it be in any way controversial. In fact, it should be praised for being ambitious and the club backing itself long term. No-one has taken anything away from Celtic or Rangers, the fact is that they were given far too much in the first place and the decision to give them two stands has been opposed since we started doing it. Now the allocation has been brought in line with that of the rest of the league, so no issues.

[djchapsticks]

1 hour ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Your board literally whored out your club shop for the green pound. 
 

Sit down.

Not only have you made an arse of the team he supports, but also our club 'whoring out' the club shop.

The whole episode, whilst embarrassing has been covered in depth on here many times. We rented the stadium out to Celtic for friendlies when Parkhead was being used for Commonwealth games. This type of rental agreement is nothing new, Rangers used to rent Love Street from us for reserve matches for a few years, as well as to give teams like Ajax and Juventus training facilities in the mid/late 90s before Champions League matches, hence few older photos of likes of Patrick Kluivert, the de Boers and Del Piero training at the old ground.

There was an agreement that they could use the shop for pre-match merchandise as they had rights to the club facilities as part of the rental (merchandising, hospitality and catering), they basically had tenancy of the ground for two weeks or so as we were on a training camp somewhere. There was no agreement in place though to change any branding in, on or around the stadium. Celtic did so off their own back and the board of St. Mirren contacted them within a few hours to remove it and they did so, I think even before the first of the two friendlies. 

The photo that was taken, was a major issue that fucked a lot of supporters off but in honesty, without the photo, most supporters would have never even known. The sign went up about midday and was gone in hours.