FM23

[forameus]

1 hour ago, Homer Thompson said:

So, genuine question, why would the women's game need a totally new matching engine and economy? 

Eta - and for the record, using "that's what SI are doing" is not going to win any arguments

Basically because women's football is near enough a different sport.  Different physical attributes that probably couldn't be modelled just by making the attributes themselves worse.  Economy might be a stretch, but given more aspects of the men's game very quickly run away with themselves and tend towards the insane levels of the spectrum, having the women's game play by the same rules might lead further from realism than they'd want.  

Economy is less of an issue than the match engine for me.  I'd like to see them at least try and model a real game of women's football, rather than just go with the attempt (emphasis on attempt) of modelling men's football.

And the "that's what SI are doing" is literally because they've said numerous times they want to do it right.  There's money in this for them, so if it was just going to be a database update, they could have released this for FM22.  They're not spending 2+ years (and sounds like there was work earlier than when it was announced) doing something that a standard editor could do (with some alterations).

[Homer Thompson]

1 hour ago, forameus said:

Basically because women's football is near enough a different sport.  Different physical attributes that probably couldn't be modelled just by making the attributes themselves worse.  Economy might be a stretch, but given more aspects of the men's game very quickly run away with themselves and tend towards the insane levels of the spectrum, having the women's game play by the same rules might lead further from realism than they'd want.  

Economy is less of an issue than the match engine for me.  I'd like to see them at least try and model a real game of women's football, rather than just go with the attempt (emphasis on attempt) of modelling men's football.

And the "that's what SI are doing" is literally because they've said numerous times they want to do it right.  There's money in this for them, so if it was just going to be a database update, they could have released this for FM22.  They're not spending 2+ years (and sounds like there was work earlier than when it was announced) doing something that a standard editor could do (with some alterations).

I think there are plenty of women who would argue against the fact that its a different sport. I know you dont mean it this way but saying so could be considered quite derogatory.

As I said, you dont need to just make the attributes worse. The fastest player in the womens game could still have speed of 20. They will only ever be compared against other women players, so how they are ranked against the men is irrelevant.

The economy issue you describes is something fundamental, not a specific issue to the womens game. As I said, I cant see how the womens economy can be significantly different to similar sized mens competitions.

Seems like what you are describing is writing a new game for womens football which fixes some of the issues in the main game. Wouldnt it be better if they just fixed the main game and made it for both? Releasing, what is in effect, two games causes all sorts of problems. What if the transfer system in the "mens" version is better? What if the match engine in the "womens" version is better? Seems like an awful lot of effort to go to just to seperate the two out and potentially cause arguments. Especially at a time where the womens game is making a lot of progress in raising the profile of the sport. "Here you go girls, we've given you your own game, cause your footballs not as good as ours" seems like a dangerous message. Although, I wouldnt put it past Miles, to be fair.

[forameus]

15 minutes ago, Homer Thompson said:

I think there are plenty of women who would argue against the fact that its a different sport. I know you dont mean it this way but saying so could be considered quite derogatory.

Yeah, that's not my intention.  The 'different game" is absolutely a positive thing, and I think they should be leaning more into that to eke out their place in sport.  You're always going to get people endlessly comparing to men's football, discussing which youth teams have given top-level women's teams a cuffing.  I don't think even trying to go against that will ever raise the low ceiling, and I think talking up the strengths they do have would let them raise it far more.  

15 minutes ago, Homer Thompson said:

As I said, you dont need to just make the attributes worse. The fastest player in the womens game could still have speed of 20. They will only ever be compared against other women players, so how they are ranked against the men is irrelevant.

But then matches will still look exactly the same, which is lazy, uninspiring, and would be a tremendous waste of an opportunity.  I'm looking forward to it coming to the game because I believe there will be noticeable differences in style to how you play it.  If there isn't, then there's pretty much no point, and it'll just be following the stale format the game has had for years now.  It'll bring pretty much nothing new to the table, and be the equivalent of starting in a lower league of a country rather than the top.  Just different attributes, different names, zero imagination.

15 minutes ago, Homer Thompson said:

Seems like what you are describing is writing a new game for womens football which fixes some of the issues in the main game. Wouldnt it be better if they just fixed the main game and made it for both? Releasing, what is in effect, two games causes all sorts of problems. What if the transfer system in the "mens" version is better? What if the match engine in the "womens" version is better? Seems like an awful lot of effort to go to just to seperate the two out and potentially cause arguments. Especially at a time where the womens game is making a lot of progress in raising the profile of the sport. "Here you go girls, we've given you your own game, cause your footballs not as good as ours" seems like a dangerous message. Although, I wouldnt put it past Miles, to be fair.

I'm not suggesting writing a new game.  In fact, the best solution I can think of would have the two worlds mix and allow you to move between them.  I've never advocating for having them as separate games, as that would be a shit idea.  Almost along the derogatory lines you mentioned previously.  Interaction modules can stay the same*, transfer modules, general interaction**...honestly most of it can probably stay consistent.  It's the match engine where I believe they should differ and I don't think that's in any way offensive to say.

What I did mention was that if they do want to  make a new style of match engine, then they can get the sort of breathing space to ask the sort of questions about the design that they're long past with the main one.  It's 20 years old (albeit there would've been rewrites in that time) so it's probably sticking plasters on sticking plasters, and will limit the chance to innovate.  If you're siphoning off a team to work on something new, they have more freedom to ask the why, how etc and do things "properly".  And that's going to be valuable information for the wider ME going forward. I used to work in a company on a monolithic trading system that was similarly aged, and so enormous that even though it was an absolute bag of shit, there was limited scope for actual improvement.  Too much going on, too many people, it just works well enough, let's just keep it as it is.  Now I'm working on a smaller thing that was going a similar way, and we're tearing up elements to do them properly.  Slower progress maybe, but longer term we're going to end up with something better.

 

 * that is, stay fucking shit
 ** again, fucking shit

 

EDIT: And as a final point, whilst I don't believe they'll do only what you mention and the bare minimum, I expect they also won't go as far as I'm talking about, at least not initially.  They'll likely play it safe, as always.  A few steps forward, but several steps short of where they could have gone.

Edited November 11, 2022 by forameus

[Rhys McCabe Hype Train]

The big things I find that are broken so far are the defenders missing headers/losing the ball when they are under no pressure at all, and the wingers match rating bug manifesting again - even with two assists my wide men struggling to get over 7.2. 

[Lyle Lanley]

Ethan Laidlaw is worth a look on loan for lower league teams of Scotland. 

[djchapsticks]

20 hours ago, Lyle Lanley said:

Ethan Laidlaw is worth a look on loan for lower league teams of Scotland. 

There's some absolute gems this year in Scotland outside the OF.

Laidlaw, McAllister and Johnson for Hibs.

Miller and Campbell at Motherwell.

O'Donnell and Moore for Dundee Utd

Bavidge at Aberdeen

Henderson and Erhahon at St. Mirren.

All eventual or potentially eventual Scotland players in game.

[Homer Thompson]

I can't bring any of these youngsters, as the game says I have four domestic loans... I have two plus one from England 

[LondonHMFC]

21 hours ago, Homer Thompson said:

I can't bring any of these youngsters, as the game says I have four domestic loans... I have two plus one from England 

Yeah I am having this as well, hopefully an update is forthcoming 

[RandomGuy.]

17 hours ago, LondonHMFC said:

Yeah I am having this as well, hopefully an update is forthcoming 

Nothing due until December, apparently. 

No VAR in the top flight until then either according to the SI forum. Nobody at SI seemed to know it was coming into Scottish football, is the excuse.

Theyve clearly absolutely half arsed this version, to the point theyll be turning brand new players away as its clearly unfinished. Some of the bugs are just embarrassing and you only have to play the first friendly to see them, so no idea how it got past the "in house testers".

Womans football being added will clearly be a farce. Theyll give a big announcement about spending months perfecting womans movements for the ME, spending further months perfecting how to spread attributes/fix the transfer window, and there will be absolutely no difference at all to what we already have. There'll almost definitely be a bug where folk are getting called "he" or "him" inside that part of the game too.

[DG.Roma]

On 29/10/2022 at 18:32, Homer Thompson said:

Nice to see the Queens research is up to its usual standard. Players missing completely from the squad and general positions and ratings all over the place

To be honest, on recent seasons' form and team selections, that seems pretty accurate for QoS

[NorthernLights]

For the first time in a long time I'm actually enjoying a game of FM. I didn't bother with 21 or 22. Started a game as unemployed and ended up as Crawley manager. Currently sitting top after 10 games.

Knowing my luck there will be a patch that'll tweak the match engine and it'll all fall to pieces.

[Lyle Lanley]

St.Johnstone paid me £200K for Demetri Mitchell  

[djchapsticks]

A very decent first season at St. Mirren but we fell away at the end, gaining a very strong 5th place finish.

But one player just wouldn't stop scoring for me.

Step forward, EUROPEAN GOLDEN BOOT WINNER EAMONN BROPHY!!!  

[Lyle Lanley]

25 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

A very decent first season at St. Mirren but we fell away at the end, gaining a very strong 5th place finish.

But one player just wouldn't stop scoring for me.

Step forward, EUROPEAN GOLDEN BOOT WINNER EAMONN BROPHY!!!  

Both NIsbet and Melkersen are goal machines in my Hibs save. 

 

[RandomGuy.]

On 18/11/2022 at 00:34, djchapsticks said:

A very decent first season at St. Mirren but we fell away at the end, gaining a very strong 5th place finish.

But one player just wouldn't stop scoring for me.

Step forward, EUROPEAN GOLDEN BOOT WINNER EAMONN BROPHY!!!  

Hows Erhahon been?

In my Scotland save he ended up at Tottenham after the first season.

[djchapsticks]

3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Hows Erhahon been?

In my Scotland save he ended up at Tottenham after the first season.

He's brilliant. Built my team around him but still only in season 2 just now.

[Sarto Mutiny]

Dipped into the workshop to find obscure leagues to download, and as a result I am now managing GSS Nuuk in the Greenland league. Here goes nothing.

 

[perthsaint1977]

On 18/11/2022 at 01:00, Lyle Lanley said:

Both NIsbet and Melkersen are goal machines in my Hibs save. 

 

Nothing changed since FM18 days then. Hibs researcher ripping the arse out of it 

[DukDukGoose]

On 13/11/2022 at 14:21, Rhys McCabe Hype Train said:

The big things I find that are broken so far are the defenders missing headers/losing the ball when they are under no pressure at all, and the wingers match rating bug manifesting again - even with two assists my wide men struggling to get over 7.2. 

It's getting a bit ridiculous.

I'm losing goals to a long kick from the keeper and the defender missing the ball every couple of games. I shouldn't have to set my defence to drop deep as I'm reading on the SI forum.

[DukDukGoose]

Here's me thinking the match engine isn't realistic.

Just lost the Scottish Cup final to Rangers, 2-0 with both goals being 'harsh' pens.