The Official Liz Truss no longer PM but still a Clusterfuck thread

[Suspect Device]

 

[Billy Jean King]

Surely out on her ear by close of business tomorrow - at the latest.

If she survives the visit from the head grey suit today she will likely limp on until the Hunt fiscal statement on 31 Oct. It's today or limp on I suspect.

[Monkey Tennis]

13 hours ago, Clown Job said:

Brexit has destroyed the UK political system 

Isn’t it wonderful 

Actually, without wishing to be too po-faced about it all, no.  It's not.

Don't get me wrong - I'm thoroughly enjoying the spectacle.  Watching these truly vile people squirm in humiliating disgrace, is immensely satisfying, and it makes for engaging entertainment.  I'm not for a moment suggesting I'm above this.

 

However, it's actually truly desperate.  The hope has to be that it hastens the demise of such idealogy, but if Scottish independence is your thing, then the evidence of it guaranteeing or even assisting such an outcome, is limited.

Instead, what we've got is a shameful bloody mess.  Even if Scotland can escape, it's still dreadful.  I don't want right wing chaos to prevail in America, France or Italy, so why would I welcome it in rUK? 

Yes, right now is fun - I'm not denying it.  People don't deserve this damage though.

[Highlandmagar]

Bring Ken Clarke out of retirement I say.

[BigDoddyKane]

19 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

Truss is going to be Prime Minister for less time than it took for them to decide she was leader, isn't she?

Edited October 20, 2022 by BigDoddyKane

[Theatom]

22 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

It’s Peter Brady.

Have you actually seen him…

[Boo Khaki]

20 minutes ago, Jedi said:

It suits the SNP to continue their Punch and Judy politics with the Tories in Scotland, as politics here has largely been reduced to 'we want a Ref/ say no to Indy Ref 2' for the last few years. As long as that continues, it shuts Labour out of the equation in Scotland.

However, when issues beyond Independence are able to be discussed, as they are at the moment cost of living, tackling the energy crisis, workers rights, pay, pensions, the environment etc, it suits neither the SNP or the Tories in Scotland as voters become engaged in ideas beyond the echo chamber of give us a Ref now/stop a Ref.

@Monkey Tennis I still reckon the issue with Labour is Jim Murphy on his Irn Bru crate, Ian Murray wearing a union jack suit, the party having a union jack at Conference, and Keir Starmer sacking an MP for joining a picket line, not promising to reverse Brexit after the next election, and.....not sure after that.

The reason politics in Scotland has been reduced to "Indy 2/No to Indy2" is because the Scots Tories have literally nothing else to say, campaign entirely and solely on 'no to indy ref 2' in every single election whether it's Scottish Parliament, Westminster, or (completely bizarrely) Local Government, and the media never challenge them on this because even when the immediate matter being discussed is another policy area, you invariably get Ross or some other SCon gonk piping up with the usual 'concentrate on the day job/obsessed with indi' narrative in an attack on the SG rather than critiquing the policy itself and suggesting what they'd do as an alternative. I will credit SLab of late for being slightly more inclined to talk policy rather than turning every bit of airtime they get into a rant about the constitutional question, but there's no doubt what their attitude to that matter is, so while DRoss and his shower insist on concentrating on nothing but the fight against IndyRef2, SLab just get drowned out and anything Sarwar says always sounds discordant and off on a tangent because it's usually prefaced by a 'No to IndyRef2' soundbite from the official opposition.

If you want to know what 'the problem' with SLab is as I see it, and I know I'm not alone in this because I've discussed it with several friends who vote SNP/Green and feel exactly the same way, then I'll explain the fundamental reason why I will not consider voting Labour regardless of what their policies are. We had nearly 10 years of Labour governance at Holyrood, that was against a backdrop of Labour in power at Westminster also. Throughout that time it became abundantly clear that for those of us who grew up under Thatcherism and subsequent Major governments, the idea that things would be so much better in Scotland if only we had Labour governance turned out to be a totally misplaced crock of shite.

I'll go back to what I said about Starmer v's Tory government. Just because something is considered 'less bad' than an alternative doesn't mean it should be mistaken for being 'good' or desirable on it's own merits. Were things better under Blair than Thatcher? Yes, I couldn't honestly pretend they weren't, but that in itself does not mean I look back fondly on Blair as a PM or life under his and Dewar/McLeish/McConnell's governments. Throughout that time there was still an overwhelming feeling that Scotland was an afterthought, and all that really mattered to Labour was cementing it's electability south of the border. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was McConnell's total indifference towards Scots opposition to the Iraq fiasco. That more than anything served to show that the question of who or what is in power in London is completely inconsequential, because when push comes to shove they will always suit themselves and totally disregard Scots if it is expedient. The later nonsense with Wendy Alexander being placed under house arrest for going off script, and Johann Lamont standing down citing the same 'Branch Office' issues that SLab's opponents had long lampooned them for just confirmed for me that my view of Labour was 100% accurate.

Labour simply can not govern Scotland in Scotland's best interest while it is still a completely anglocentric party that prioritises Westminster electability above all else. Who precisely is leading them, who the policy makers are, who is leading Slab, what Slab's policies are, all of it is rendered completely and utterly inconsequential by the fact that they will, in every instance, do what is good for them to get into and stay in Downing street, even if that is completely at odds with the will of Scots. See Brexit for the latest example of this.

This is why I will not, and can not vote for Labour. I am not their priority, so they can not govern in my best interest, and as we've seen any Slab leader who tries to pretend otherwise is talking shite. They'll be slapped back into place immediately if they even dare to think about implementing something in Scotland that makes life more difficult for Labour politicians south of the border. The whole thing is a pantomime.

[Alert Mongoose]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Actually, without wishing to be too po-faced about it all, no.  It's not.

Don't get me wrong - I'm thoroughly enjoying the spectacle.  Watching these truly vile people squirm in humiliating disgrace, is immensely satisfying, and it makes for engaging entertainment.  I'm not for a moment suggesting I'm above this.

 

However, it's actually truly desperate.  The hope has to be that it hastens the demise of such idealogy, but if Scottish independence is your thing, then the evidence of it guaranteeing or even assisting such an outcome, is limited.

Instead, what we've got is a shameful bloody mess.  Even if Scotland can escape, it's still dreadful.  I don't want right wing chaos to prevail in America, France or Italy, so why would I welcome it in rUK? 

Yes, right now is fun - I'm not denying it.  People don't deserve this damage though.

Most people don't but there are a large swathe of Tory voters who, quite frankly, do as perhaps it's the only way they will learn.  

[HTG]

45 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Which is it?

Labour are being slated on here for being just the same as even this vile incarnation of the Tories.

Yet they gifted the Tories the last election apparently, presumably by being led by Corbyn?

 

I vote SNP myself, but there are posters on here who need to decide exactly what their problem is with Labour, beyond just no liking them.

The problem with Labour is that they put the UK ahead of every single other factor. They jump into bed with the tories at the drop of a hat - see multiple council coalitions. They refuse to work with the SNP (largest party in Scotland) because of the perception it'll create in England. Everything is about winning England because they're fucked without that. And that, of course, is the heart of the problem - everything in UK politics is driven by what England wants and votes for. We get left with the splash back from the campaign in England. 

f**k that. And f**k Labour.

Ian Murray is no better than Alistair Jack. Of course Starmer would be a better PM than Johnson or Truss - but if that's the bar then it requires only a step over rather than a jump. I doubt he'd be much of an improvement on Teresa May. 

As long as Labour set about preventing self determination they can take their face for a shite. Scotland could be a normal country but these wankers want to prevent that at all costs. f**k off.

None of that changes the fact that the Tories are a disgrace. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Which is it?
Labour are being slated on here for being just the same as even this vile incarnation of the Tories.
Yet they gifted the Tories the last election apparently, presumably by being led by Corbyn?
 
I vote SNP myself, but there are posters on here who need to decide exactly what their problem is with Labour, beyond just no liking them.

Having been a member of the Labour Party I trust them as far as I can throw them.

If the party conference pass any sort of radical policy it is either ignored or, probably worse, implemented in such a way that it is completely undermined.

You saw this with constitutional reform for both Regional Assemblies and introducing AV - both ended up losing when it came to referenda because of unenthusiastic campaigns (and downright opposition from the Luddites within the Labour Party).

Labour are great at making promises then fall short on delivery. What disturbs me about the current lot though is their propensity to try and out-Tory the Tories - just witness Rachel Reeves speech attacking the Tories for not deporting enough immigrants.

When it comes to Scotland though Labour really are first a party of the Union - prepared to suspend councillors if they don't support Tory-Labout council coalitions tells you everything.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Starmer's statement today....'unequivocally' supporting workers on right, but the role of a party leader different to a union leader. end fire and rehire, ban zero hours contracts, extend sick pay to every worker, repeal the 50% requirement to call a strike, 

The very large Elephant in the room for Labour remains the EU and the fact that Starmer has no intentions of taking us back in.

Over and above this, most "traditional" Labour supporters that I know moved to the SNP due to them stealing the socialist ground from Labour, under Starmer Labour is still perceived as a centrist party much the same as under Blair and while there's no doubt that would be preferable to the current mob of jokers, the fact remains that a centrist Labour party is still much less palatable in Scotland than ever......

 

[TheScarf]

2 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

The very large Elephant in the room for Labour remains the EU and the fact that Starmer has no intentions of taking us back in.

Over and above this, most "traditional" Labour supporters that I know moved to the SNP due to them stealing the socialist ground from Labour, under Starmer Labour is still perceived as a centrist party much the same as under Blair and while there's no doubt that would be preferable to the current mob of jokers, the fact remains that a centrist Labour party is still much less palatable in Scotland than ever......

 

Brexit is the killer for Labour in Scotland IMO. They believe in it like the Tories do.  Scotland voted against it, hence why Labour have 1 MP here, for example.

[Granny Danger]

18 minutes ago, Theatom said:

Have you actually seen him…

Somebody gets it.

[Guest Jedi]

There is no question from.the tone and rhetoric of the SNP echo chamber here that Labour are despised more than the Tories. When it comes to getting into bed with the Tories no less a figure than Alex Salmond relied on working with the Tories post 2007 and copying up to Annabele Goldie to get SNP policies through.

The SNP are a big business/keep the markets happy party, whose policies are designed as a sop to the middle class..whether it is Council Tax freezes, free prescriptions, low corporation taxes. They are the natural party of rural farming Scotland as that is their traditional supporter base, and don't ever want to upset the middle class applecart by implementing redistributive policies (the only one they have managed in 15 years is the Proceesds of Crime Bill).

The idea that the Labour govt from 1997-2010 did nothing to improve people's lives in the UK is incredible..minimum wage, Sure Start, record numbers of working class going to university, record investment in.health and education,. smaller class sizes, windfall taxes on private companies, a Human Rights Act, same sex marriage, lowest levels of crime for decades..to name a few.

So the argument that Labour in power have done 'nothing' for Scotlland (setting up Devolution in the first place?)...

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

There is no question from.the tone and rhetoric of the SNP echo chamber here that Labour are despised more than the Tories.

That's complete bollocks.

[welshbairn]

[Monkey Tennis]

22 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

The reason politics in Scotland has been reduced to "Indy 2/No to Indy2" is because the Scots Tories have literally nothing else to say, campaign entirely and solely on 'no to indy ref 2' in every single election whether it's Scottish Parliament, Westminster, or (completely bizarrely) Local Government, and the media never challenge them on this because even when the immediate matter being discussed is another policy area, you invariably get Ross or some other SCon gonk piping up with the usual 'concentrate on the day job/obsessed with indi' narrative in an attack on the SG rather than critiquing the policy itself and suggesting what they'd do as an alternative. I will credit SLab of late for being slightly more inclined to talk policy rather than turning every bit of airtime they get into a rant about the constitutional question, but there's no doubt what their attitude to that matter is, so while DRoss and his shower insist on concentrating on nothing but the fight against IndyRef2, SLab just get drowned out and anything Sarwar says always sounds discordant and off on a tangent because it's usually prefaced by a 'No to IndyRef2' soundbite from the official opposition.

If you want to know what 'the problem' with SLab is as I see it, and I know I'm not alone in this because I've discussed it with several friends who vote SNP/Green and feel exactly the same way, then I'll explain the fundamental reason why I will not consider voting Labour regardless of what their policies are. We had nearly 10 years of Labour governance at Holyrood, that was against a backdrop of Labour in power at Westminster also. Throughout that time it became abundantly clear that for those of us who grew up under Thatcherism and subsequent Major governments, the idea that things would be so much better in Scotland if only we had Labour governance turned out to be a totally misplaced crock of shite.

I'll go back to what I said about Starmer v's Tory government. Just because something is considered 'less bad' than an alternative doesn't mean it should be mistaken for being 'good' or desirable on it's own merits. Were things better under Blair than Thatcher? Yes, I couldn't honestly pretend they weren't, but that in itself does not mean I look back fondly on Blair as a PM or life under his and Dewar/McLeish/McConnell's governments. Throughout that time there was still an overwhelming feeling that Scotland was an afterthought, and all that really mattered to Labour was cementing it's electability south of the border. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was McConnell's total indifference towards Scots opposition to the Iraq fiasco. That more than anything served to show that the question of who or what is in power in London is completely inconsequential, because when push comes to shove they will always suit themselves and totally disregard Scots if it is expedient. The later nonsense with Wendy Alexander being placed under house arrest for going off script, and Johann Lamont standing down citing the same 'Branch Office' issues that SLab's opponents had long lampooned them for just confirmed for me that my view of Labour was 100% accurate.

Labour simply can not govern Scotland in Scotland's best interest while it is still a completely anglocentric party that prioritises Westminster electability above all else. Who precisely is leading them, who the policy makers are, who is leading Slab, what Slab's policies are, all of it is rendered completely and utterly inconsequential by the fact that they will, in every instance, do what is good for them to get into and stay in Downing street, even if that is completely at odds with the will of Scots. See Brexit for the latest example of this.

This is why I will not, and can not vote for Labour. I am not their priority, so they can not govern in my best interest, and as we've seen any Slab leader who tries to pretend otherwise is talking shite. They'll be slapped back into place immediately if they even dare to think about implementing something in Scotland that makes life more difficult for Labour politicians south of the border. The whole thing is a pantomime.

That's pretty much fair, and explains the journey so many Scots have made.

My issue, however, was to contest the notion that Labour are as bad as this latest version of the Tories.  I maintain that such an outlook is lazy and foolish.

[Caledonian1]

1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

 

That's complete bollocks.

 

He's nae the brightest.

Jedi - do you want to take your love of labour and the UK back to the "Whats's the point in Labour thead"?

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

There is no question from.the tone and rhetoric of the SNP echo chamber here that Labour are despised more than the Tories. When it comes to getting into bed with the Tories no less a figure than Alex Salmond relied on working with the Tories post 2007 and copying up to Annabele Goldie to get SNP policies through.

The SNP are a big business/keep the markets happy party, whose policies are designed as a sop to the middle class..whether it is Council Tax freezes, free prescriptions, low corporation taxes. They are the natural party of rural farming Scotland as that is their traditional supporter base, and don't ever want to upset the middle class applecart by implementing redistributive policies (the only one they have managed in 15 years is the Proceesds of Crime Bill).

The idea that the Labour govt from 1997-2010 did nothing to improve people's lives in the UK is incredible..minimum wage, Sure Start, record numbers of working class going to university, record investment in.health and education,. smaller class sizes, windfall taxes on private companies, a Human Rights Act, same sex marriage, lowest levels of crime for decades..to name a few.

So the argument that Labour in power have done 'nothing' for Scotlland (setting up Devolution in the first place?)...

 

What's the point of Labour thread for this pish. This is a thread about oor Lizzie, who looks to be standing down imminently. 

[Melanius Mullarkey]