How do you solve a problem like the Scottish Premiership?

[SamuraiJock]

3 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Nobody in any position of power wants a Diddy club to be taking champions league spots. None. 

That was what i described though? Celtic win the "league" so they get the champions league spot, but they go on to the playoffs where they might lose the Scottish football equivalent of the World Series.

Edited March 13, 2023 by SamuraiJock

[G_&_T]

I'm late to this thread, so for the second time tonight I will apologise for unintentionally reiterating a point raised elsewhere. However, I think the only way to solve the problem is to split all gate revenue 50/50. The Old Firm will, of course, be wealthier still, but the gap would be reduced.

Given Celtic are a left-leaning club, I'm sure their supporters will have absolutely no problem applying the principles of socialism to gate receipts...

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, G_&_T said:

Given Celtic are a left-leaning club, I'm sure their supporters will have absolutely no problem applying the principles of socialism to gate receipts...

I think that's only the Green Brigade, a small section of their overall support and crucially, a section strongly opposed by the club owners. Celtic are not St Pauli and certainly the Celtic fan who posted a page or two back showed zero understanding of these ideas.

[Kapowzer]

I started a thread similar at Christmas partly because I was just fed up with things and because I'd overlooked this thread which at the time was on page 2/3.

I asked a couple of questions to OF supporters and @Jinky67@AJF kindly responded. Their answers can be found if you click on the shortcuts below.

On 26/12/2022 at 05:57, Kapowzer said:

(answer each from 0 = absolutely not to 10 = big time)

1./ Are you genuinely content with the present duopoly as it stands.

2./ Would you welcome stronger competition domestically that means you may lose a few more per season and win less silverwear (Less Tina Turner and Depeche Mode)

3./ Willing to have a sporting handicap placed on you (points deduction, starting a game -2 goals, squad cap, you go back to three subs, rest of league stays at 5 or something else)

4./ Willing to diminish/redistribute any of your current income (both reported £90m ish), also indicate how much

and no score but:

5./ What would would you be willing to accept and would you suggest any solution

Maybe some OF may support this but they'd want it that extended to Juventus, RB Leipzig and Lyon too, so they weren't further from competing in the CL.

 

On 26/12/2022 at 18:48, Kapowzer said:

The sporting penalty/"punished for being successful" is one way of looking at it. Another would be a handicap system to level the playing field as in horse racing and golf where a 20 year 2 games a week guy can go toe to toe with a someone starting out. I've always found it strange that some sports level things and others such as football and tennis introduce seeding which limits the chances of truly fair and random draw.

Another few questions for you to answer then as we're on a roll:

1./ I assume you both have season tickets (or have had), how much weight of that purchase do you attribute to securing a seat for the two OF games you host?

( I ask after watching Celtic host Livi last week and the swathes of empty seats)

2./ Irrespective of your answer above, what do you reckon is the percentage of your that fans do?

(Speaking for my own club, there is a massive drop off when the OF come to town but midweek, Saturdays and weekend TV games, the number is pretty uniform)

3./ Would you countenance retaining less UEFA money if it was mandated all over Europe to all teams?

If any other OF fans want to score it ideal.

As I was leaning in the questions, I don't think the solution is found domestically. It has to be a pan European thing mandated by UEFA as they preside over handing out vast swathes of wealth that changed our game immeasurably 30 years ago. Asking the rich clubs to forego a lot of their income is a non starter considering UEFA is currently rejigging the CL yet again to increase the wealth gap. Add in trying to get a consensus from what 40 nations it makes it feel like it is impossible until super brands with home supports in excess of 50k and worldwide followings move away from domestic football entirely.

[Dons_1988]

6 hours ago, SamuraiJock said:

That was what i described though? Celtic win the "league" so they get the champions league spot, but they go on to the playoffs where they might lose the Scottish football equivalent of the World Series.

Sorry, misread your post. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Dons_1988

[VincentGuerin]

8 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

 Asking the rich clubs to forego a lot of their income is a non starter

And here, basically, is the issue. Sounding like yer absolute da here, but the game is no longer a sport, it is a business. And the absolutely vile obsession with money (see transfer deadline day, obsession with high-earning players, results from European games being reported in terms of their financial reward) in the game today, you're never going to get most fans of any club to see why they should forego a financial advantage for the good of the sport.

I had a pint with a Celtic-supporting mate of mine recently (before we played them at Parkhead) and this came up. He was adamant that Celtic shouldn't have to give up any of their cash to the other teams in the league. Fair enough, but he also complained that most games he goes to on his season ticket are dull. The idea that his experience of watching football might be improved if other teams turned up at Celtic Park with a chance of winning, and if a home game against, say, Dundee United was a genuine big game didn't really register. We were off to watch a game that night where the side third in the league were 12/1 to win (and I believe drifted even further out once the team was announced), but this guy, an intelligent man, didn't see that it might be better for his experience if his club sought competition rather than blanket dominance.

It won't happen, but I think you'd make a huge difference while running a pretty fair ship by saying clubs can keep 50% of their European money, while the other half goes between the other clubs in their league system. Successful clubs would still get a huge leg-up, but other clubs would have a swing at competing.

But what's good for the sport simply doesn't matter to most fitba fans, and it matters not a jot to the people running clubs. Everyone is just pure self-interest. Your club, my club, all clubs. And as a result, the baw is burst.

Edited March 14, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Otis Blue]

10 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

And here, basically, is the issue. Sounding like yer absolute da here, but the game is no longer a sport, it is a business. And the absolutely vile obsession with money (see transfer deadline day, obsession with high-earning players, results from European games being reported in terms of their financial reward) in the game today, you're never going to get most fans of any club to see why they should forego a financial advantage for the good of the sport.

I had a pint with a Celtic-supporting mate of mine recently (before we played them at Parkhead) and this came up. He was adamant that Celtic shouldn't have to give up any of their cash to the other teams in the league. Fair enough, but he also complained that most games he goes to on his season ticket are dull. The idea that his experience of watching football might be improved if other teams turned up at Celtic Park with a chance of winning, and if a home game against, say, Dundee United was a genuine big game didn't really register. We were off to watch a game that night where the side third in the league were 12/1 to win (and I believe drifted even further out once the team was announced), but this guy, an intelligent man, didn't see that it might be better for his experience if his club sought competition rather than blanket dominance.

It won't happen, but I think you'd make a huge difference while running a pretty fair ship by saying clubs can keep 50% of their European money, while the other half goes between the other clubs in their league system. Successful clubs would still get a huge leg-up, but other clubs would have a swing at competing.

But what's good for the sport simply doesn't matter to most fitba fans, and it matters not a jot to the people running clubs. Everyone is just pure self-interest. Your club, my club, all clubs. And as a result, the baw is burst.

Can't argue with most of that.

Celtic won't want to share 50% of their European income because their goal is to narrow the gap to the top European sides such that they can actually compete in the CL group stages and not be embarrassed against the top sides and to do that they need to accumulate all the dosh they can get their paws on.  Being philanthropic towards the rest of Scottish football will not feature in the Celtic (or Rangers) business model.

The idea of some form of splitting/sharing attendances is interesting, but for the very points you made in your post, the game is now first and foremost a business and the top league clubs just wouldn't go for this.

Sadly, I see no solution to the problem apart from the OF moving somewhere else - but that won't happen.  There was once talk of an Atlantic League where they would join the big sides from say Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark etc, but that never got off the ground.  The oft voiced prospect of the OF moving to the English leagues won't happen either (turkeys don't vote for Xmas etc  - ie the English sides don't want them).  So we are stuck with the OF and hence the game here is permanently Friar Tucked with the "rest" only ever competing for 3rd place and the very, very occasional cup win.

Like your discussion with your Celtic supporting mate, I've worked in Glasgow for many years and have had many discussions with (intelligent, degree qualified) OF fans along the way and to a man/woman they've had absolutely zero interest in the plight of the diddy clubs/competitiveness of our league up here - their only motivations were dominating the other half of the OF and competing with the European elite, nothing else was on the agenda.  They put up with the rest of Scottish football just because they have to.  So its hopeless looking to Parkhead/Ibrox for assistance.

[HibsFan]

1 hour ago, VincentGuerin said:

 had a pint with a Celtic-supporting mate of mine recently (before we played them at Parkhead) and this came up. He was adamant that Celtic shouldn't have to give up any of their cash to the other teams in the league. Fair enough, but he also complained that most games he goes to on his season ticket are dull. The idea that his experience of watching football might be improved if other teams turned up at Celtic Park with a chance of winning, and if a home game against, say, Dundee United was a genuine big game didn't really register. We were off to watch a game that night where the side third in the league were 12/1 to win (and I believe drifted even further out once the team was announced), but this guy, an intelligent man, didn't see that it might be better for his experience if his club sought competition rather than blanket dominance.

 

How I’m choosing to imagine this conversation went:

[VincentGuerin]

6 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

How I’m choosing to imagine this conversation went:

To be fair, he just sees it a different way. Celtic fans are as deluded as some non-OF fans about how they might be able to compete with the biggest clubs in Europe, and he looks that way rather than caring about whether the league is any good. He just sees league games as a dull necessity.

He only goes to home games, and due to holidays etc Celtic have won every domestic game he's seen them play since covid. Imagine that.

[PauloPerth]

11 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

I think that's only the Green Brigade, a small section of their overall support and crucially, a section strongly opposed by the club owners. 

Haha! Wit????!!!

The green brigade are a bunch of millennials who are desperately trying to find purpose and attention through their actions at the football.

All the pseudo political and edgy posturing is just ‘rebellious teenager’ personified, with a fair slice of virtue signalling thrown in.

Anyone that goes to an entertainment event; be it the football, a concert, a comedian or whatever, and feels the need to make it about themselves is a fanny.  Like a heckler at a comedy night, thinking how smart they’re being whilst the vast majority of the audience are hoping the c**t falls down the steps and dies in the interval.

I’m not talking about supporters at any club singing to get behind their team, that’s adding to the atmosphere and occasion and is what sets football apart from other sports.

[10menwent2mow]

That Keevins article gave me the absolute rage. Then once they drew each other I could relax in the fact that he will be absolutely fucking seething. Look forward to loads of articles about how that semi is the real final. 

[DukDukGoose]

3 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

And here, basically, is the issue. Sounding like yer absolute da here, but the game is no longer a sport, it is a business. And the absolutely vile obsession with money (see transfer deadline day, obsession with high-earning players, results from European games being reported in terms of their financial reward) in the game today, you're never going to get most fans of any club to see why they should forego a financial advantage for the good of the sport.

I had a pint with a Celtic-supporting mate of mine recently (before we played them at Parkhead) and this came up. He was adamant that Celtic shouldn't have to give up any of their cash to the other teams in the league. Fair enough, but he also complained that most games he goes to on his season ticket are dull. The idea that his experience of watching football might be improved if other teams turned up at Celtic Park with a chance of winning, and if a home game against, say, Dundee United was a genuine big game didn't really register. We were off to watch a game that night where the side third in the league were 12/1 to win (and I believe drifted even further out once the team was announced), but this guy, an intelligent man, didn't see that it might be better for his experience if his club sought competition rather than blanket dominance.

It won't happen, but I think you'd make a huge difference while running a pretty fair ship by saying clubs can keep 50% of their European money, while the other half goes between the other clubs in their league system. Successful clubs would still get a huge leg-up, but other clubs would have a swing at competing.

But what's good for the sport simply doesn't matter to most fitba fans, and it matters not a jot to the people running clubs. Everyone is just pure self-interest. Your club, my club, all clubs. And as a result, the baw is burst.

Yip.

Couldn't be arsed with the games against the uglies this season (didn't attend the *** game after the surrender at home to Celtic) but was getting the pre-match nerves before the games against Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd at home. We were playing decent stuff and it felt like the games could go either way.

[VincentGuerin]

2 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

Yip.

Couldn't be arsed with the games against the uglies this season (didn't attend the *** game after the surrender at home to Celtic) but was getting the pre-match nerves before the games against Hearts, Hibs and Dundee Utd at home. We were playing decent stuff and it felt like the games could go either way.

Aye, I'm really looking forward to this Saturday. More so than I have to a game for quite a while. No idea how it'll go, but that's what the fitba is meant to be like.

[HibsFan]

We can all stand down, everyone. Johnny has come along and helpfully solved the problem for us.

Apparently right, all we need to do to close the gap is sign Aaron Mooy when he's a free agent.

Don't sweat the small stuff about things like wages and whether his career ambitions align with playing for Ross County.

You see? He's a free agent, that means that any club in Scotland could have signed him.

Well done to Celtic for being sooooooo clever and realising that when the rest of us didn't.

You really do deserve all of those trophies for having the smarts that our silly little clubs just can't possess.

Spoiler

c***s.

 

[VincentGuerin]

9 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

We can all stand down, everyone. Johnny has come along and helpfully solved the problem for us.

Apparently right, all we need to do to close the gap is sign Aaron Mooy when he's a free agent.

Don't sweat the small stuff about things like wages and whether his career ambitions align with playing for Ross County.

You see? He's a free agent, that means that any club in Scotland could have signed him.

Well done to Celtic for being sooooooo clever and realising that when the rest of us didn't.

You really do deserve all of those trophies for having the smarts that our silly little clubs just can't possess.

  Reveal hidden contents

c***s.

 

To be fair, I've long had a theory that if Hearts just signed all Celtic's player, we'd maybe win things.

That lad's onto something.

[Mark Connolly]

17 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

We can all stand down, everyone. Johnny has come along and helpfully solved the problem for us.

Apparently right, all we need to do to close the gap is sign Aaron Mooy when he's a free agent.

Don't sweat the small stuff about things like wages and whether his career ambitions align with playing for Ross County.

You see? He's a free agent, that means that any club in Scotland could have signed him.

Well done to Celtic for being sooooooo clever and realising that when the rest of us didn't.

You really do deserve all of those trophies for having the smarts that our silly little clubs just can't possess.

  Reveal hidden contents

c***s.

 

Why didn't Celtic sign all the players who fucked them out of the Champions League?

[Falcor Roar]

The gap 25 years ago, 97/98 season, was 5 points between 2nd and 3rd. The O'Neill/Advocaat/McLeish years saw complete and previously unseen dominance as the finances of the game changed with respect to European tv money, commercial revenues etc. Since then it's swung between total dominance of the Old Firm and small windows of a season or two where there's transition and a non OF side can snatch a trophy. Then Rangers died and Celtic became weak in response and there was a number of years where others could win cups. 

The 'return' of Sevco Rangers to the top flight and Rogers era Celtic brought back total domination again. Brief window where Celtic hired Lennon for a laugh aside, it's likely that this will continue and widen from here on in.

measuring non OF club success by trophy haul is becoming more and more absurd. Many Hearts fans are going tonto because we didn't lay a glove on Celtic in the last double header. They've literally got 8 times the amount of cash compared to us. You want Neilson emptied because of that? The problem is that people just haven't caught up with the new extreme reality of our game.

[1GregStewart]

36 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Aye, I'm really looking forward to this Saturday. More so than I have to a game for quite a while. No idea how it'll go, but that's what the fitba is meant to be like.

I reckon there will be about 18k at the game(a good few more than when Celtic visit). Decent atmosphere and anything could happen. Bring it on. Big game 

Edited March 14, 2023 by 1GregStewart

[RandomGuy.]

33 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

We can all stand down, everyone. Johnny has come along and helpfully solved the problem for us.

Apparently right, all we need to do to close the gap is sign Aaron Mooy when he's a free agent.

Don't sweat the small stuff about things like wages and whether his career ambitions align with playing for Ross County.

You see? He's a free agent, that means that any club in Scotland could have signed him.

Well done to Celtic for being sooooooo clever and realising that when the rest of us didn't.

You really do deserve all of those trophies for having the smarts that our silly little clubs just can't possess.

  Reveal hidden contents

c***s.

 

They'll never comprehend their financial advantages. Aside from Rangers every other club in the country could spend so much money that theyd struggle to survive 12 months, and still not come close to what Celtic are spending. 

[VincentGuerin]

12 minutes ago, Falcor Roar said:

Many Hearts fans are going tonto because we didn't lay a glove on Celtic in the last double header. They've literally got 8 times the amount of cash compared to us. You want Neilson emptied because of that? The problem is that people just haven't caught up with the new extreme reality of our game.

The hand-wringing from our support about that result is very funny, to be fair.

Never even bothered my arse going, but Celtic's wage bill is bad enough without the load of players we had missing. Then we lose 3-0 and folk act as if we've just been pumped out by Brora again.

Fucking mad  What did they actually expect to happen?

Edited March 14, 2023 by VincentGuerin