big al Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 17 hours ago, ekok said: Don't normally dip into this thread, recent posts remind me why. Any decent points are immediately swamped by a litany of sad, old , arguments, none of which will ever add anything to our game. In fact quite the opposite, a real shame as we clearly have lots of people very interested in the product. In fact football in Scotland is a dream for would be investors or broadcasters, the numbers are off the scale. Problem is we are so self interested and protective of our wee bit, can't even begin to optimise of what we have to offer. The pathetic TV deals are best/ worst example. First post I read asked what would improve the product, by way of reorganisation. Firstly ,current set up is an ugly construction, totally creating over complicated and frankly nonsensical arrangements. Long story short, too few teams in too many divisions. Thee divisions of 16 , allowing more ambitious teams below SPFL to bring to the party ( yes absolutely self interest from me on this) . Three down, two automatic plus play off for third from division below, same as English Premier. Absolutely never ever any play off to reward failure, like team 42 now. Play offs are for going up, not get out of jail. How does opening up more promotion or relegation of semi pro part time teams in any way solve the problem of the Scottish premiership being a 2 horse race for the rest of our lives? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekok Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Step 1. Once the Pyramid and structure are right ie fewer but larger divisions, increased movement up and down, each club should be able to rise to match ambition or fall to rightful level.Of course this happens now, despite of , not because of the structure. The current structure is a dog's breakfast and as such is easy to play .The logjam at Team 42 is only one of the problems .Every time a reconstruction plan is mooted, it is easily thwarted. Step 2. Once the shape makes sense,proper attention can be focused on the politics ie voting arrangements. These currently make the shape look well thought out. Forever being told SPFL is a " members organisation " . Suggest time the members got organised and simplify their voting rules. Again complexity is so easy to play. Step 3. Once control is more democratic, tackle the £ distribution, being more equitable down the divisions. That should allow more clubs to get more resources and result in more competition. As one brilliant example, look at the NFL Draft system. Lowest teams get first pick of new talent, who they can keep to improve squad or trade , getting $ to do likewise This improves overall standard and competition, which improves product , which ......... and so on. Yes some teams still have runs of success, but nothing like here. Not suggesting any of this is easy or above will solve all the problems, but surely we need to do something. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Lots of folk mentioning 'ambition' here. What makes a club more 'ambitous' than another? Are there clubs who are not 'ambitious'? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loonytoons Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Lots of folk mentioning 'ambition' here. What makes a club more 'ambitous' than another? Are there clubs who are not 'ambitious'?Cowdenbeath 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fletchers Saucy Manbun Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Way of the world, wouldn't worry about it too much. Start following some local banter leagues where everyone has a shot every season, it's good relief from the SPL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 Awful lot of new accounts over the last couple of days, all saying similar things... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted August 26, 2022 Share Posted August 26, 2022 12 hours ago, MEADOWXI said: This not a Scottish issue, Bar Twente in 2009-2010 & DWS in 1963-1964 the Dutch league has never been won by other than three team (Ajax, Feyenoord & PSV). Bar Boavista (2000-2001) & Belenenses (1945-1946) the Portuguese league has never been won by other than three team (Porto, Benfica & Sporting). Teams dominating leagues is fairly normal. Trying to artificially change it won't work. Can only pray for a proper liquidation followed by bulldozing and grave dancing to actually change things. I'm not sure citing a league which has had four winners since 2000 and another which has had five winners since 2000 is proving your point? Isn't that the complete opposite of proving your point? I do agree with your solution though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie adie Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 On 26/08/2022 at 13:57, HibeeJibee said: Look at those leagues whose clubs have reached CL groups this season, and at who finished top 2 in those leagues in last decade. Basically almost every league is now dominated by 2 or 3 clubs. In some cases it's a single club, and there may be few battling behind them; in some cases it's a duopoly; in some cases it's a triumvirate. Beyond that it's largely one-offs or early last decade. Austria only 2 clubs have won and 1 of those was 10 years ago 3 other clubs have finished 2nd Belgium only 3 clubs have won 3 other clubs have finished 2nd but 1 of those was 10 years ago - admittedly another was most recent Croatia only 2 clubs have won (once in 1 case) 3 other clubs have finished 2nd - and admittedly most of those were most recent Czech Republic only 3 clubs have won and 1 of those was 9 years ago nobody else has finished 2nd Denmark 4 clubs have won but 1 of those was 9 years ago 2 other clubs have finished 2nd (once each) but those were 7 + 10 years ago England 5 clubs have won 2 other clubs have finished 2nd France only 3 clubs have won (once each in 2 cases) 2 other clubs have finished 2nd and 1 of those was 7 + 8 years ago Germany only 1 club has won 4 other clubs have finished 2nd (once each in some cases) Israel only 3 clubs have won only 1 other club has finished 2nd (once) Italy only 3 clubs have won - admittedly 2 of those were most recent 2 other clubs have finished 2nd Netherlands only 3 clubs have won nobody else has finished 2nd Portugal only 3 clubs have won (once in 1 case) nobody else has finished 2nd Scotland only 2 clubs have won only 2 other clubs have finished 2nd and 1 of those was 9 + 10 years ago Spain only 3 clubs have won nobody else has finished 2nd Ukraine only 2 clubs have won only 2 other clubs have finished 2nd (once each) and those were 9 + 10 years ago What are the figures for the last 36 yrs are they similar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 On 26/08/2022 at 16:55, Squonk said: I feel guilty nit-picking about your post when I should be commending you for the research you've clearly done, but why are you only comparing other nations during the past 10 seasons when nobody except the big two have won a Scottish top league title for 37 seasons? Also, your conclusion, along with many others' on here, seems to be that our league isn't broken so long as other nations' leagues are broken in a similar manner as well. Indeed. The point that this is a trend evident across Europe is valid and true. However, we've endured it for longer than most. The reality is too, that in a way, our more varied range of runners up, is misleading. The break in our duopoly took a death of a participant to happen, and even then, it soon got restored. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 Do I really need to post this magnificent plan in yet another thread? I wonder where they'll put my statue: All the non-OF clubs get together and demand a massively different distribution model that presents a much, much more level playing field for clubs. It could involve gate sharing, merchandising being pooled, a requirement for a large chunk of European income to be shared out etc. There would be a need for this model to involve lower league clubs also, so that no cliff face exists. When these demands are rejected by the clubs and spluttered about in the media, the top flight diddies agree ahead of the next full season, that they will field youth sides against the OF, ensuring that they get hammered each and every time. For home matches against the OF, they should urge their own fans to boycott the games, opening the grounds entirely to OF fans if they still want to come. It'll mean that the OF sides take maximum points from everyone else, and the title will rest solely on the 4 OF games. The spectacle for Sky will be shit and thoroughly devalued. Meanwhile, the teams will all compete as usual against each other, meaning the 3rd placed team will be regarded as Champions by actual fans everywhere. A trophy could even be presented. Relegation will still be decided in the traditional way, but as everyone has lost to the OF every time, the outcome will again be entirely reliant on non-OF fixtures. The actual end of season table would not be that vastly different from what we get each year anyway. The difference would be that the others would have stopped pretending that they all take part in a valid competition to win the league. Think how this would capture the imagination. Fans would for the first time be involved in what would be considered the actual title race. This would be an international, sensational media story of the ancient footballing nation that stood up to the injustices of the modern game. The Latest OF league win would be rendered hollower than ever, derived as it would be from just 4 matches against 1 opponent. Meanwhile, we'd all hail our new real champions. No way would those in our game have the courage to do any of this of course, but it's a nice dream. We need the behaviour of our clubs to reflect that we don't need the OF, but they do need us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 Next to Fr Walfrid I'd imagine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 18 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: the 3rd placed team will be regarded as Champions by actual fans everywhere. This is where you go from a chap with a bee in his bonnet - which I sort-of admire - to being a sophist with a chip on his shoulder. Supporters of Teams 1&2 are 'actual fans', too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lubo_blaha Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 Do I really need to post this magnificent plan in yet another thread? I wonder where they'll put my statue: All the non-OF clubs get together and demand a massively different distribution model that presents a much, much more level playing field for clubs. It could involve gate sharing, merchandising being pooled, a requirement for a large chunk of European income to be shared out etc. There would be a need for this model to involve lower league clubs also, so that no cliff face exists. When these demands are rejected by the clubs and spluttered about in the media, the top flight diddies agree ahead of the next full season, that they will field youth sides against the OF, ensuring that they get hammered each and every time. For home matches against the OF, they should urge their own fans to boycott the games, opening the grounds entirely to OF fans if they still want to come. It'll mean that the OF sides take maximum points from everyone else, and the title will rest solely on the 4 OF games. The spectacle for Sky will be shit and thoroughly devalued. Meanwhile, the teams will all compete as usual against each other, meaning the 3rd placed team will be regarded as Champions by actual fans everywhere. A trophy could even be presented. Relegation will still be decided in the traditional way, but as everyone has lost to the OF every time, the outcome will again be entirely reliant on non-OF fixtures. The actual end of season table would not be that vastly different from what we get each year anyway. The difference would be that the others would have stopped pretending that they all take part in a valid competition to win the league. Think how this would capture the imagination. Fans would for the first time be involved in what would be considered the actual title race. This would be an international, sensational media story of the ancient footballing nation that stood up to the injustices of the modern game. The Latest OF league win would be rendered hollower than ever, derived as it would be from just 4 matches against 1 opponent. Meanwhile, we'd all hail our new real champions. No way would those in our game have the courage to do any of this of course, but it's a nice dream. We need the behaviour of our clubs to reflect that we don't need the OF, but they do need us.I remember an Aberdeen forum posting a similar table 10+ years ago. Worked out pretty well, one of the two excluded teams got liquidated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 52 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said: Next to Fr Walfrid I'd imagine. It's Brother, Brother. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB-Scotland Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 Redistribution of TV dosh, 50/50 gate money split, wage cap outside of 3 or 4 marquee players, Belgian style title playoff for the top 3. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 40 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Supporters of Teams 1&2 are 'actual fans', too. Ok, fair enough. I genuinely don't think they're fans of the same thing I am though. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Ok, fair enough. I genuinely don't think they're fans of the same thing I am though. I don't know. When Deek 'Tattoos' Lyle put you one up vs Us in 2015 - a game you went on to win 3-0 - I am pretty sure you said to your weans, "I shall now do a knee slide but, as a sensible person, I'll ask you to clear the kitchen of all objects that may be injurious". We're not that different. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said: I don't know. When Deek 'Tattoos' Lyle put you one up vs Us in 2015 - a game you went on to win 3-0 - I am pretty sure you said to your weans, "I shall now do a knee slide but, as a sensible person, I'll ask you to clear the kitchen of all objects that may be injurious". We're not that different. I was at the game with one of them, so clearing the kitchen would not have helped. I think followers of diddy sides derive very different things from OF fans, in following their respective clubs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranaldo Bairn Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 19 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: It's Brother, Brother. I know, but I was thinking "frater". What's the appropriate abbreviation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted August 27, 2022 Share Posted August 27, 2022 7 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said: I know, but I was thinking "frater". What's the appropriate abbreviation? F or Fr apparently, so well played. Either way, he's exhausted from all that birling. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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