Jump to content

Rest in Peace Scottish football


Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Yeah that extra 1 club competing makes a difference in leagues where they are almost double the size of ours.

You really make a great point 😐

Yeah, I did make a great point because I was directly quoting someone who specifically mentioned the EPL, Spain and Germany. Then I mentioned some smaller countries who have three clubs. You don’t have to agree that having three relatively matched clubs is better than two out of sight ones, but I was just replying to someone else. I wouldn’t expect you to want Scotland to have a third club on a par with you and your bosom buddies. A nice, stitched-up, cosy, two club cartel suits both of you just fine. I get it. As long as you beat ‘them’, and get it right up them. World’s a great place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Aufc said:

I say this as someone who doesn’t particularly like the old firm (although I do want them to do well in Europe, as with any Scottish team).

Other Scottish clubs always bang on about getting rid of the Scottish football but, the simple fact is, the quality within Scottish football would almost certainly diminish. This would be because there wouldn’t be as much money in the game. The sky tv deal is pretty shit but, as far as I know, it’s the best out there. I can’t imagine the same level of money is offered without the old firm.

I do agree that the old firm doing well in Europe makes the gap even bigger (the gap will never be closed due to the difference in support etc). However, them being successful in Europe has increased the co-efficient which has allowed us to have wider Scottish appearances in Europe. Motherwell made an arse of it. Dundee United came up against a half decent team but got pumped. Hearts will hopefully get through.

If the old firm go, I can’t see teams like st mirren or st johnstone suddenly seeing a large increase in their attendances.

People will argue that it will become more competitive which it may. However, what will probably happen is that there will be a new monopoly. The likes of aberdeen and hearts have much larger supports than the majority of other teams so they will just start to win most things. All of that under, what will almost certainly be, an inferior product which then leads to reduced co-efficient etc.

The quality of Scottish football outside the OF is English league 2 level. This is the level of player that is signed by non OF clubs which makes it the level. Most people don't follow football for the standard or we would definitely not get the highest crowds per capita in Europe.

Without the OF would we even need as big a TV deal? They swallow up the vast amount of money anyway so it wouldn't need to be as big for the clubs to receive the same amounts they are already getting.

We are getting 5 teams in Europe this year due to the coefficient which is on a peak amount, it will drop back to 4 within a couple of years. Malta and the Faroes get 4 teams in Europe so our coefficient would have to be as bad as San Marino to only get 3. The OF take 2 spots anyway so without them we would actually get more non OF teams in Europe. Motherwell and Killie have lost to Irish and  Welsh teams recently, so having the OF how is it helping us outcompete these nations?

Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen would be the big 3 but they absolutely would not dominate like the OF. In my view I would accept less money and a lesser profile league to see it become more competitive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Yeah that extra 1 club competing makes a difference in leagues where they are almost double the size of ours.

You really make a great point 😐

FC Twente, Alkmaar and Boavista have all won the league this century, the gap in these countries isn't quite the same as there is evidence of it being bridged. But even so I would say a 3 horse race is still better than a 2 horse race. 

*Boavista is the only other winner since Belenses in 1945, Portugal definitely also has a huge problem with competition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’m glad Dundee United took the principled stance of distancing itself from European football at an early stage this season.

 

I’m just glad you took the principled stance of allowing St Mirren to have their way with you. 😃

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, ahemps said:

The quality of Scottish football outside the OF is English league 2 level. This is the level of player that is signed by non OF clubs which makes it the level. Most people don't follow football for the standard or we would definitely not get the highest crowds per capita in Europe.

It's a little bit more complicated than that.

A lot of English Championship clubs sign players from League 2 or the Conference, but it doesn't make them of that level.

The non-OF clubs in the Premiership in any given season will range from Championship to League Two level. I watch a lot of it in the flesh, and Hearts at the moment would be a mid-table Championship side, for example.

A lot of people over-estimate that league hugely. It's fucking mince for the most part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

Tell me Kennie who is getting close to topping Bayern Munich in the Bundesliga? 

Who. cares ....the German equivalent of P&B are welcome to that debate.  The Scottish top flight is effectively dead but once again the Old Firm brainstrust trot out the "why are you annoyed that your cat got run over, cats get run over in Munich too, you know" line of defence.  Good job the rest of us aren't listening to the outdated tribal whataboutery and triumphalism any longer.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, ahemps said:

The quality of Scottish football outside the OF is English league 2 level. 

 

Why do so many always feel the need to compare to this league?

Last night, Sportsound pundits couldn't stop talking about the credibility this will give Sevco down in England.

There is an obsession with this. 

How do we, for example, compare to Slovakia?  This is a similar-sized country to ours.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, VincentGuerin said:

It's a little bit more complicated than that.

A lot of English Championship clubs sign players from League 2 or the Conference, but it doesn't make them of that level.

The non-OF clubs in the Premiership in any given season will range from Championship to League Two level. I watch a lot of it in the flesh, and Hearts at the moment would be a mid-table Championship side, for example.

A lot of people over-estimate that league hugely. It's fucking mince for the most part.

English championship clubs sign the best players from league 2. Motherwell signed a guy not getting a game for Salford this year. There is a difference but I take your point.

It is very subjective but I disagree that Hearts would compete in the Championship. Players find their level and follow the money, if Hearts had numerous players at Championship level then these players would be asking to move their as they could double or treble their wages there.

Is Kinglsey one of your best players? A guy Hull deemed not good enough? Michael Smith, Barrie McKay, are these some of your better players who joined Hearts after being released by league 1 clubs?

This is not a dig at these players or your club just a genuine debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

It's a little bit more complicated than that.

A lot of English Championship clubs sign players from League 2 or the Conference, but it doesn't make them of that level.

The non-OF clubs in the Premiership in any given season will range from Championship to League Two level. I watch a lot of it in the flesh, and Hearts at the moment would be a mid-table Championship side, for example.

A lot of people over-estimate that league hugely. It's fucking mince for the most part.

Having lived down there and watched a lot of their football it's noticeable how much physicality is an important part of the game in the Championship and below and how little tactics and skilful play are a part of it. Quite often it's a defence and midfield that are two banks of four, putting it out to the full back, floated ball forward for a target man to bring down and lay off to a midfielder to try and pick a pass for the wide players/other striker to run onto. It's the go to move for 50%+ of their teams. Probably to do with their teams playing 60 games a season and the amount of time you can work on things on a training pitch being diluted but it's all about big, tall guys who can run, hold a ball up and have the fitness to do that for 4,000+ minutes a season.

Thinking of players at the same level up here I doubt guys like Scott Tiffoney or Lewis Vaughn would get a look in because they're too wee and there's no place for that wee spark of creativity or flair in the unending focus on shape and playing the percentages. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, ahemps said:

English championship clubs sign the best players from league 2. Motherwell signed a guy not getting a game for Salford this year. There is a difference but I take your point.

It is very subjective but I disagree that Hearts would compete in the Championship. Players find their level and follow the money, if Hearts had numerous players at Championship level then these players would be asking to move their as they could double or treble their wages there.

Is Kinglsey one of your best players? A guy Hull deemed not good enough? Michael Smith, Barrie McKay, are these some of your better players who joined Hearts after being released by league 1 clubs?

This is not a dig at these players or your club just a genuine debate.

I understand your point, but it makes the assumption that clubs get things right or that the players in the English Championship are worth what they're getting paid. They manfestly are not.

I see a fair bit of Preston, for example, and they're not a better side than Hearts. I go along to Burton (League One) quite often and Hearts would pump them no bother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ahemps said:

Is it fair to include #Barclays?

6 different winners in 20yrs, the teams battling out for the title vary every few years, we've seen a Leicester title win and you've monster clubs like Newcastle and Spurs who if they get it right can definitely compete as well.

It is the most marketable league in the world and out of the top 5 leagues it is definitely the most competitive which is probably why it is the most popular. 

Manchester City, Chelsea (until very recently)  & Newcastle are bankrolled by sugar daddies and nations 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, tarapoa said:

Why do so many always feel the need to compare to this league?

Last night, Sportsound pundits couldn't stop talking about the credibility this will give Sevco down in England.

There is an obsession with this. 

How do we, for example, compare to Slovakia?  This is a similar-sized country to ours.

The OF and Scottish media have an obsession, the English don't really care, the likes of Southampton, Leicester and Brentford can take the OF's best players if and when they want. They look at the OF in Europe like we look at Sherif Tiraspol being in the CL group stages. There are a handful of clubs like Malmo, Young boys etc get to the group stages every year, they are not there to compete but to make up numbers. The new CL format in 2yrs time will provide 2 more teams from the big 5 leagues and the French 3rd team won't need to qualify anymore. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Having lived down there and watched a lot of their football it's noticeable how much physicality is an important part of the game in the Championship and below and how little tactics and skilful play are a part of it. Quite often it's a defence and midfield that are two banks of four, putting it out to the full back, floated ball forward for a target man to bring down and lay off to a midfielder to try and pick a pass for the wide players/other striker to run onto. It's the go to move for 50%+ of their teams. Probably to do with their teams playing 60 games a season and the amount of time you can work on things on a training pitch being diluted but it's all about big, tall guys who can run, hold a ball up and have the fitness to do that for 4,000+ minutes a season.

Thinking of players at the same level up here I doubt guys like Scott Tiffoney or Lewis Vaughn would get a look in because they're too wee and there's no place for that wee spark of creativity or flair in the unending focus on shape and playing the percentages. 

Aye. Lower half of the Championship and League One is full of players who look like 100m sprinters, but are lacking in the fundamentals of the game.

Obviously, there is a difference in style, and I agree that a lot of it is due to the schedule. Hearts would need a bigger squad, for example.

It's not something I'm overly bothered about, but it comes up a lot. You can't throw a blanket over the 10 sides outwith the OF and say they all compare to this specific bracket in the English set-up. The Championship in England, for example, is a league with a huge range of quality in it. As is League One. League Two is just generally a bit rubbish.

A meaningless comparison anyway, but we're here to talk about meaningless things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Having lived down there and watched a lot of their football it's noticeable how much physicality is an important part of the game in the Championship and below and how little tactics and skilful play are a part of it. Quite often it's a defence and midfield that are two banks of four, putting it out to the full back, floated ball forward for a target man to bring down and lay off to a midfielder to try and pick a pass for the wide players/other striker to run onto. It's the go to move for 50%+ of their teams. Probably to do with their teams playing 60 games a season and the amount of time you can work on things on a training pitch being diluted but it's all about big, tall guys who can run, hold a ball up and have the fitness to do that for 4,000+ minutes a season.

Thinking of players at the same level up here I doubt guys like Scott Tiffoney or Lewis Vaughn would get a look in because they're too wee and there's no place for that wee spark of creativity or flair in the unending focus on shape and playing the percentages. 

I always watch the Skybet games on Sky and the quality of the majority of the games are laughable.  Long ball shite as you described and the ball is like a hot potato.  I've said this before but it's boys on 5-6 large a week who can barely control a ball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

Manchester City, Chelsea (until very recently)  & Newcastle are bankrolled by sugar daddies and nations 

Which I disagree with but all clubs are bankrolled by money men. If it wasn't for them it may still be an Arsenal Man Utd duopoly. I don't agree with this financing but it has made the league competitive. 

Dermot Desmond has a few quid does he not? He is hardly the local butcher helping out the local club. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, ahemps said:

That is very selective, Portugal has a much smaller TV pot to split, the UK has the biggest. In 2018 the UK TV pool was 154m of which 10% went to Scotland so around 15.4m. That was for Celtic alone, is it still a 10% share to Scotland now there are 2 teams? If it is then Rangers qualifying did just cost you around 7m in TV split or is this wrong?

If the 3 Portuguese clubs got 600k each then there TV pot must only be around 2m. 

Do you agree with the coefficient split? You may be happy because you trump Rangers this season but are you happy with it in general? Are you happy clubs like Benfica and Ajax will earn around 3x what you get from it? If the coefficient was calculated over 5yrs and not 10 then the OF would nearly swap the amounts received. The timing benefits you today but if you both qualify again in 4yrs time it is very likely Rangers will get more.

I'm sure I read that had Leicester pipped Chelsea to the CL a few yrs ago they would have received around 3-4m to Chelsea's 30. It is another way to keep the lesser clubs from getting close to the 'superleague clubs'.

Swiss Ramble predicted the share of the tv pot available to Celtic for this season was 4.71 million. The pot is estimated to be smaller due to a rebate following Covid.

With Rangers now in it our share would be 55% so at max it should be a 2.2 million loss which can be recouped with just 1 win 

Swiss Ramble is usually pretty spot on so no reason to doubt it 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

I always watch the Skybet games on Sky and the quality of the majority of the games are laughable.  Long ball shite as you described and the ball is like a hot potato.  I've said this before but it's boys on 5-6 large a week who can barely control a ball.

I mind going to see AFC Wimbledon v Northampton with ma mate who was a Northampton fan. Made a joke after ten minutes I hadn't seen a single pass played forwards along the ground yet and made an effort to look out for one. Came to half time and there wasn't one. Genuinely saw better passing and control in the Fort William v Golspie match the other week.

Although obviously either of those teams would have put double figures past Golpsie. They play to their strengths. But it's mind numbing and, also, explains why some Scottish players can't hack it down there. It's just not a system that suits them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I mind going to see AFC Wimbledon v Northampton with ma mate who was a Northampton fan. Made a joke after ten minutes I hadn't seen a single pass played forwards along the ground yet and made an effort to look out for one. Came to half time and there wasn't one. Genuinely saw better passing and control in the Fort William v Golspie match the other week.

Although obviously either of those teams would have put double figures past Golpsie. They play to their strengths. But it's mind numbing and, also, explains why some Scottish players can't hack it down there. It's just not a system that suits them. 

And it's probably why a lot of players come up from League One/Two to the Scottish Barclays and can't cope with the style and are laughed back down the road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...