What is the answer?

[TheScarf]

40 out of 42 of the SPFL clubs having objectively shite players doesn’t help. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

If Hibs had a B team in the LL last season they'd have won easy.

[ClydeTon]

Apologies if this begins to tread the border between idea and rant.

The solution, for me, would be a total reform of the league structure.

Premiership - 18 Teams (34 Games, if the SPFL want more Old Firms they could always split it into 3 groups of 6)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

Championship - 16 Teams (30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 4 Playoff Places (2nd-5th)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

L1 / National League - 14/16 Teams (26/30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 2 Playoff Spots (2nd & 3rd)

• 1 Relegation Spot

 

And then filters into the Lowland/Highland and such.

Another potential game-changer would be a 'Minimum Scottish Players' rule. Perhaps, Five or Six in the Starting XI (exceptions for Injuries and Suspensions, of course), or ten in the club's squad. Whatever.

The main reason Scottish teams get humped in Europe is because the Old Firm shell money out on foreigners and typically leave Scots to the backburner, and so pretty much any decent Scottish player heads down south or to the continent.

Look at the Scotland NT; Clark (Hearts, GK), Kelly (Motherwell, GK), McGregor (Celtic), Taylor (Celtic), Souttar (Rangers), Jack (Rangers), Shankland (Hearts). That's everyone that plays in the Scottish Premiership.

Looking at that list, only McGregor gets regular games for Scotland. Clark and Kelly are firmly behind Gunn, and considering he was thrown straight in to replace Gordon ahead of the other two, says quite a lot. Ryan Jack, Shankland and Taylor are all backup options. Souttar was derailed a bit by injury but with the current backline of Scotland I struggle to see him sneaking in over the likes of McKenna or Hendry.

Apart from McGregor, everyone who plays for Scotland regularly, plays club football abroad. It's quite telling, not only of their personal quality, but the lack of it in Scotland's leagues.

The SPFL leagues, although the Premiership is like this more than any other, feel like a closed shop. The Premiership has one, automatic, relegation slot, and one slot for the farcical playoff set-up, that allows 11th place to undo an entire season's worth of mediocrity over 180 minutes.

The Premiership ranks 9th in Europe's leagues (2017-22), being held up in large part now by Rangers' UEL run. The game needs changed to have a properly open pyramid, a larger top and second division, and getting shot of so many L1/L2 clubs that don't want to do anything with themselves.

Cove, Kelty, Stenhousemuir, Arbroath- those are the clubs that can help drive the game forward. Clubs with great community aspects, ambition and/or youth set-ups. It all helps to develop the game going forward.

The clubs (not naming names) who just float around the bottom ends of L1 and L2, just staying afloat of relegation year after year, are part of the problem.

The current set-up of the SPFL has two layers of, for lack of a better word, elitism. One: Protecting the Premiership/OF (one automatic relegation slot, small league = more derbies = more money), and Two: Protect everyone (having 10th in L2 play a playoff that could write-off their entire season. Essentially making the SPFL Pyramid a half-shut door.)

So, in my eyes, the format above is the answer to Scottish Football's problems. Not just in Europe, but with everything.

[Richey Edwards]

Scottish club teams have a tendency to underestimate their opponents in games like that. 

[Binos]

4 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

Scottish club teams have a tendency to underestimate their opponents in games like that. 

Do they , or are they just utter shite

[Richey Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Binos said:

Do they , or are they just utter shite

Both.

[Jacksgranda]

13 minutes ago, ClydeTon said:

Apologies if this begins to tread the border between idea and rant.

The solution, for me, would be a total reform of the league structure.

Premiership - 18 Teams (34 Games, if the SPFL want more Old Firms they could always split it into 3 groups of 6)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

Championship - 16 Teams (30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 4 Playoff Places (2nd-5th)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

L1 / National League - 14/16 Teams (26/30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 2 Playoff Spots (2nd & 3rd)

• 1 Relegation Spot

 

And then filters into the Lowland/Highland and such.

Another potential game-changer would be a 'Minimum Scottish Players' rule. Perhaps, Five or Six in the Starting XI (exceptions for Injuries and Suspensions, of course), or ten in the club's squad. Whatever.

The main reason Scottish teams get humped in Europe is because the Old Firm shell money out on foreigners and typically leave Scots to the backburner, and so pretty much any decent Scottish player heads down south or to the continent.

Look at the Scotland NT; Clark (Hearts, GK), Kelly (Motherwell, GK), McGregor (Celtic), Taylor (Celtic), Souttar (Rangers), Jack (Rangers), Shankland (Hearts). That's everyone that plays in the Scottish Premiership.

Looking at that list, only McGregor gets regular games for Scotland. Clark and Kelly are firmly behind Gunn, and considering he was thrown straight in to replace Gordon ahead of the other two, says quite a lot. Ryan Jack, Shankland and Taylor are all backup options. Souttar was derailed a bit by injury but with the current backline of Scotland I struggle to see him sneaking in over the likes of McKenna or Hendry.

Apart from McGregor, everyone who plays for Scotland regularly, plays club football abroad. It's quite telling, not only of their personal quality, but the lack of it in Scotland's leagues.

The SPFL leagues, although the Premiership is like this more than any other, feel like a closed shop. The Premiership has one, automatic, relegation slot, and one slot for the farcical playoff set-up, that allows 11th place to undo an entire season's worth of mediocrity over 180 minutes.

The Premiership ranks 9th in Europe's leagues (2017-22), being held up in large part now by Rangers' UEL run. The game needs changed to have a properly open pyramid, a larger top and second division, and getting shot of so many L1/L2 clubs that don't want to do anything with themselves.

Cove, Kelty, Stenhousemuir, Arbroath- those are the clubs that can help drive the game forward. Clubs with great community aspects, ambition and/or youth set-ups. It all helps to develop the game going forward.

The clubs (not naming names) who just float around the bottom ends of L1 and L2, just staying afloat of relegation year after year, are part of the problem.

The current set-up of the SPFL has two layers of, for lack of a better word, elitism. One: Protecting the Premiership/OF (one automatic relegation slot, small league = more derbies = more money), and Two: Protect everyone (having 10th in L2 play a playoff that could write-off their entire season. Essentially making the SPFL Pyramid a half-shut door.)

So, in my eyes, the format above is the answer to Scottish Football's problems. Not just in Europe, but with everything.

On the one hand you want to increase the SPFL to 50 clubs, but at the same time get shot of so many L1/L2 clubs.

[Binos]

Same shit different season 

There will be no answers,  no one in the club game or at sfa wants them anyway 

[ClydeTon]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

On the one hand you want to increase the SPFL to 50 clubs, but at the same time get shot of so many L1/L2 clubs.

I would have L1/National League outwith the "Professional" set up. So 34 in the SPFL.

Although, if it were an open pyramid (no chance at survival for bottom of the L1/National) as I suggested, it would probably be a lot less of an issue, as those clubs would, inevitably, filter back out.

For example; the English National League. It's structured like any of the leagues above it, with teams from far north and far south. But it's still considered "non-league".

In this case, L1/National would be that, with only two leagues above it.

It's harsh yet fair. It allows smaller clubs to play against the falling clubs and creates a lot more competition, particularly in relegation races, imo.

Edited July 27, 2023 by ClydeTon

[Buckets]

2 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

Apologies if this begins to tread the border between idea and rant.

The solution, for me, would be a total reform of the league structure.

Premiership - 18 Teams (34 Games, if the SPFL want more Old Firms they could always split it into 3 groups of 6)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

Championship - 16 Teams (30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 4 Playoff Places (2nd-5th)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

L1 / National League - 14/16 Teams (26/30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 2 Playoff Spots (2nd & 3rd)

• 1 Relegation Spot

 

And then filters into the Lowland/Highland and such.

Another potential game-changer would be a 'Minimum Scottish Players' rule. Perhaps, Five or Six in the Starting XI (exceptions for Injuries and Suspensions, of course), or ten in the club's squad. Whatever.

The main reason Scottish teams get humped in Europe is because the Old Firm shell money out on foreigners and typically leave Scots to the backburner, and so pretty much any decent Scottish player heads down south or to the continent.

Look at the Scotland NT; Clark (Hearts, GK), Kelly (Motherwell, GK), McGregor (Celtic), Taylor (Celtic), Souttar (Rangers), Jack (Rangers), Shankland (Hearts). That's everyone that plays in the Scottish Premiership.

Looking at that list, only McGregor gets regular games for Scotland. Clark and Kelly are firmly behind Gunn, and considering he was thrown straight in to replace Gordon ahead of the other two, says quite a lot. Ryan Jack, Shankland and Taylor are all backup options. Souttar was derailed a bit by injury but with the current backline of Scotland I struggle to see him sneaking in over the likes of McKenna or Hendry.

Apart from McGregor, everyone who plays for Scotland regularly, plays club football abroad. It's quite telling, not only of their personal quality, but the lack of it in Scotland's leagues.

The SPFL leagues, although the Premiership is like this more than any other, feel like a closed shop. The Premiership has one, automatic, relegation slot, and one slot for the farcical playoff set-up, that allows 11th place to undo an entire season's worth of mediocrity over 180 minutes.

The Premiership ranks 9th in Europe's leagues (2017-22), being held up in large part now by Rangers' UEL run. The game needs changed to have a properly open pyramid, a larger top and second division, and getting shot of so many L1/L2 clubs that don't want to do anything with themselves.

Cove, Kelty, Stenhousemuir, Arbroath- those are the clubs that can help drive the game forward. Clubs with great community aspects, ambition and/or youth set-ups. It all helps to develop the game going forward.

The clubs (not naming names) who just float around the bottom ends of L1 and L2, just staying afloat of relegation year after year, are part of the problem.

The current set-up of the SPFL has two layers of, for lack of a better word, elitism. One: Protecting the Premiership/OF (one automatic relegation slot, small league = more derbies = more money), and Two: Protect everyone (having 10th in L2 play a playoff that could write-off their entire season. Essentially making the SPFL Pyramid a half-shut door.)

So, in my eyes, the format above is the answer to Scottish Football's problems. Not just in Europe, but with everything.

You’d have the same teams and the same players but they’d just be playing in different leagues. Might be better, might be worse but don’t think it would make our teams any better in Europe. 
 

The reason why a lot of our national team plays abroad is because we have a decent group of players right now, that can play at a higher level and be well paid for it. Bringing in a limit on foreign players isn’t going to keep players like Ferguson, McGinn, Tierney etc in Scottish football, it just further limits our clubs’ options

[HibeeJibee]

Playstations
Tanner ba's
Teachers strike
'No Ball Games' signs
Deindustrialisation
Traffic
Glasnost & Perestroika
Genetics
"Too many clubs"

IMO

[ClydeTon]

37 minutes ago, Buckets said:

You’d have the same teams and the same players but they’d just be playing in different leagues. Might be better, might be worse but don’t think it would make our teams any better in Europe. 
 

The reason why a lot of our national team plays abroad is because we have a decent group of players right now, that can play at a higher level and be well paid for it. Bringing in a limit on foreign players isn’t going to keep players like Ferguson, McGinn, Tierney etc in Scottish football, it just further limits our clubs’ options

A limit on foreign players would force clubs to invest in youth infrastructure to get quality Scottish players. That, in the long-run, means they spend less on large groups of foreigners, and can make fewer, yet bigger, signings. It also improves the national team, which in turn raised the profile of Scottish Football across Europe (the current run of form has got a lot of people talking, after all), so forth.

The Danes do it incredibly well. They have their top league of professional clubs, and below that it's all semi-pro. Pretty much everyone has extensive youth infrastructure and that's why, for a country with no big clubs at a European level, and with a relatively small population, they have such an amazing national team.

It's never too late for Scotland to do something of the sort. Even if it's a dialed down version.

League reform, however, is the first thing needed.

[KingRocketman II]

summer football. I think it is that simple. 

Scottish football is not great but it's enjoyable. And on a par with mid ranking European leagues. Play over the summer and at the early stages of Euro football, there is no rustiness. 

Would also promote the game a bit more to be one of the few leagues being played and televised when most leagues have their summer break. We are probably the only league in the world competing with other leagues in the same country for support, exposure, space and television rights/funding. 

The UEFA rule requiring eight homegrown players to be in every CL squad rule is enforced in England's top flight I believe but not here. If that is indeed the case I am amazed because a) it is a good rule and b) rather than market the uniqueness of Scottish football, Doncaster et al are merely content to mimic what is happening south of the border and see what crumbs fall our way as a result. 

 

[RedLichtie86]

Its clear that Scottish clubs are clearly incapabale of getting themselves ready to play in Europe. Time again we see clubs celebrate getting into Europe only to be in such disarray as soon as they start preseason. 

When we had teams in the first round qualifiers it was decided that those clubs would get a bye until after the group stages of the League Cup as the schedule was too tight.

Now that we are in a better position in terms of when teams enter Europe, its time these clubs all enter the group stages of the League Cupbso they can be better prepared for the season.

Hibs would have played 3 competetive games (Sat, Tue, Sat) before they would have played their game in Europe. And 5 by the time of the 2nd leg. They would have been in a much better position to have got a good result.

Same goes for the other clubs as their first competetive qualifier games are as follows.

Rangers - 5th August (3/4days before first Europe game)

Aberdeen - 5th August (19 days before 1st Europe game)

Hearts - 5th August (5 days before 1st Europe game)

[Stellaboz]

Instead of league placings, an independent panel of experts (me) decides who gets to play. 

Based on last season I'd have chucked Airdrie in there. They'd have taken 15 goals off that mob last night and a few of that Andorran lot.

[Sergeant Wilson]

36 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

summer football. I think it is that simple. 

Scottish football is not great but it's enjoyable. And on a par with mid ranking European leagues. Play over the summer and at the early stages of Euro football, there is no rustiness. 

Would also promote the game a bit more to be one of the few leagues being played and televised when most leagues have their summer break. We are probably the only league in the world competing with other leagues in the same country for support, exposure, space and television rights/funding. 

The UEFA rule requiring eight homegrown players to be in every CL squad rule is enforced in England's top flight I believe but not here. If that is indeed the case I am amazed because a) it is a good rule and b) rather than market the uniqueness of Scottish football, Doncaster et al are merely content to mimic what is happening south of the border and see what crumbs fall our way as a result. 

 

When is summer?

[kennie makevin]

1 hour ago, KingRocketman II said:

summer football. I think it is that simple. 

Scottish football is not great but it's enjoyable. And on a par with mid ranking European leagues. Play over the summer and at the early stages of Euro football, there is no rustiness. 

Would also promote the game a bit more to be one of the few leagues being played and televised when most leagues have their summer break. We are probably the only league in the world competing with other leagues in the same country for support, exposure, space and television rights/funding. 

The UEFA rule requiring eight homegrown players to be in every CL squad rule is enforced in England's top flight I believe but not here. If that is indeed the case I am amazed because a) it is a good rule and b) rather than market the uniqueness of Scottish football, Doncaster et al are merely content to mimic what is happening south of the border and see what crumbs fall our way as a result. 

 

It's not when we play football that's the problem it's how we play football. How we address  that is almost fiendishly impossible given that so many have such differing ideas on what's causing the decline in standard of Scottish club footballer. I sometimes think I'm almost alone in believing that this obsession we have in Scotland with having 'meaningful matches' is a major part of the problem. There is no room to breath, to relax , to experiment, to introduce and encourage young talent when 'every game matters'  18 league top flight, play each other twice and reintroduce the totally healthy, yet seemingly alien in Scotland, idea of meaningless end of season matches. And if Sky, or whatever soon to be bust minor TV player, wants four Old Firm games a season tell them , politely, to do one. 

Edited July 28, 2023 by kennie makevin
Edit

[Jacksgranda]

10 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

I would have L1/National League outwith the "Professional" set up. So 34 in the SPFL.

Although, if it were an open pyramid (no chance at survival for bottom of the L1/National) as I suggested, it would probably be a lot less of an issue, as those clubs would, inevitably, filter back out.

For example; the English National League. It's structured like any of the leagues above it, with teams from far north and far south. But it's still considered "non-league".

In this case, L1/National would be that, with only two leagues above it.

It's harsh yet fair. It allows smaller clubs to play against the falling clubs and creates a lot more competition, particularly in relegation races, imo.

You didn't make that clear in your initial post.

[Monkey Tennis]

14 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

Apologies if this begins to tread the border between idea and rant.

The solution, for me, would be a total reform of the league structure.

Premiership - 18 Teams (34 Games, if the SPFL want more Old Firms they could always split it into 3 groups of 6)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

Championship - 16 Teams (30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 4 Playoff Places (2nd-5th)

• 2 Relegation Spots

 

L1 / National League - 14/16 Teams (26/30 Games)

• 1 Direct Promotion Spot

• 2 Playoff Spots (2nd & 3rd)

• 1 Relegation Spot

 

And then filters into the Lowland/Highland and such.

Another potential game-changer would be a 'Minimum Scottish Players' rule. Perhaps, Five or Six in the Starting XI (exceptions for Injuries and Suspensions, of course), or ten in the club's squad. Whatever.

The main reason Scottish teams get humped in Europe is because the Old Firm shell money out on foreigners and typically leave Scots to the backburner, and so pretty much any decent Scottish player heads down south or to the continent.

Look at the Scotland NT; Clark (Hearts, GK), Kelly (Motherwell, GK), McGregor (Celtic), Taylor (Celtic), Souttar (Rangers), Jack (Rangers), Shankland (Hearts). That's everyone that plays in the Scottish Premiership.

Looking at that list, only McGregor gets regular games for Scotland. Clark and Kelly are firmly behind Gunn, and considering he was thrown straight in to replace Gordon ahead of the other two, says quite a lot. Ryan Jack, Shankland and Taylor are all backup options. Souttar was derailed a bit by injury but with the current backline of Scotland I struggle to see him sneaking in over the likes of McKenna or Hendry.

Apart from McGregor, everyone who plays for Scotland regularly, plays club football abroad. It's quite telling, not only of their personal quality, but the lack of it in Scotland's leagues.

The SPFL leagues, although the Premiership is like this more than any other, feel like a closed shop. The Premiership has one, automatic, relegation slot, and one slot for the farcical playoff set-up, that allows 11th place to undo an entire season's worth of mediocrity over 180 minutes.

The Premiership ranks 9th in Europe's leagues (2017-22), being held up in large part now by Rangers' UEL run. The game needs changed to have a properly open pyramid, a larger top and second division, and getting shot of so many L1/L2 clubs that don't want to do anything with themselves.

Cove, Kelty, Stenhousemuir, Arbroath- those are the clubs that can help drive the game forward. Clubs with great community aspects, ambition and/or youth set-ups. It all helps to develop the game going forward.

The clubs (not naming names) who just float around the bottom ends of L1 and L2, just staying afloat of relegation year after year, are part of the problem.

The current set-up of the SPFL has two layers of, for lack of a better word, elitism. One: Protecting the Premiership/OF (one automatic relegation slot, small league = more derbies = more money), and Two: Protect everyone (having 10th in L2 play a playoff that could write-off their entire season. Essentially making the SPFL Pyramid a half-shut door.)

So, in my eyes, the format above is the answer to Scottish Football's problems. Not just in Europe, but with everything.

I fail to see how virtually any of that, would make a difference.

[Monkey Tennis]

12 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

I would have L1/National League outwith the "Professional" set up. So 34 in the SPFL.

Although, if it were an open pyramid (no chance at survival for bottom of the L1/National) as I suggested, it would probably be a lot less of an issue, as those clubs would, inevitably, filter back out.

For example; the English National League. It's structured like any of the leagues above it, with teams from far north and far south. But it's still considered "non-league".

In this case, L1/National would be that, with only two leagues above it.

It's harsh yet fair. It allows smaller clubs to play against the falling clubs and creates a lot more competition, particularly in relegation races, imo.

And it would improve the likes of Hibs?  How, exactly?