36 years, how much longer?

[AndyM]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

80's fitba was - hugely - a more level playing field than today to the point that it scarcely merits a comparison. The fact that Aberdeen, Dundee Utd & Hearts could build teams over the course of a few years without imminent fear of their best players fucking off after a good three months is a huge difference. Financial disparity is the primary reason but Bosman was a fundamental change that happened at the same time that also had a hugely detrimental effects on mid sized teams.

1991 was the last actual (non-fantasy) title challenge when Aberdeen took Rangers to the last game decider - and it it no accident that CL money and Bosman ended our league as a competition for good.

The only way the rest could win a title now was if we changed the format of the league radically to allow that (eg, a post-season playoff amongst the top 4 teams for the title because knockout formats do deliver non-OF winners now and again). I would personally be in favour of anything that allowed a slim chance, even in the knowledge that in any format, Rangers and Celtic would still have all the advantages.

 

Agreed. For me 1991 was the last hurrah on non OF teams challenging for the title. 31 years ago. Since then it's been nothing more than flattering to deceive from the diddies. I don't ever see a Leicester happening up here not while the biggest of the diddies (Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen operate on less than a quarter of the budgets of the OF).

As soon as one of the diddies strings a few results together and players get noticed the OF media grind into gear saying one of the arse cheeks is "set to swoop for this or that player", unsettling the player who thinks he's going to quadruple his salary at a minimum. Either that or the player is told to see out his contract and not re-sign with his diddy employer. This inevitably derails the team so you never get a challenge. 

[ahemps]

Just now, Hoose Rice said:

They would never vote it through.  Aberdeen fucked the voting system change to do such things.

That is definitely true.

My point being though that Bayern at least are open minded to a change like that. The OF are built on being the ultimate superiority that they couldn't contemplate such a move.

[TheScarf]

16 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Bayern Munich are apparently open to this for the Bundesliga. 10iar is probably a bit embarrassing for them in reality.

The OF would probably still win 19/20 leagues in a playoff as they would almost always be 1st and 2nd meaning the 3rd or 4th team has to beat them both to win it but still that 1 season out of 20 would be the most memorable.

Aye I read something about Bayern and a play off too.  Again, they know they'd win it 9 times out of 10 so are probably thinking 'aye fuck it'. 

Even with the current 11-1 system, there's no way in hell the Old Firm would vote for a play off at the end of the league season because of the risk of one of them not winning it.  It would effectively be a cup tie scenario which on any given day one or both of them could be knocked out of.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Neither of them, particularly Rangers, has ever been "well run". They are financially able to withstand the chronic mismanagement because the margins are wider.

Even then Rangers still managed to f**k up by getting caught cheating when all the massive advantages they held still existed. Quite simply, they had everything and wanted more.

[kennie makevin]

10 minutes ago, AndyM said:

Agreed. For me 1991 was the last hurrah on non OF teams challenging for the title. 31 years ago. Since then it's been nothing more than flattering to deceive from the diddies. I don't ever see a Leicester happening up here not while the biggest of the diddies (Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen operate on less than a quarter of the budgets of the OF).

As soon as one of the diddies strings a few results together and players get noticed the OF media grind into gear saying one of the arse cheeks is "set to swoop for this or that player", unsettling the player who thinks he's going to quadruple his salary at a minimum. Either that or the player is told to see out his contract and not re-sign with his diddy employer. This inevitably derails the team so you never get a challenge. 

It's almost as if the media in Scotland don't want a club other than the verministas to actually win the league...... surely not !!!!!

[free beer]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Nonsense.

Peak Alex Ferguson would be quite unable to compete with the relative wealth the OF have today.

Suggesting he would is just to play the OF's game in claiming that the others just need to up their game.

The landscape Ferguson experienced as a manager in Scotland, is not remotely comparable to that which exists currently.

Nonsense? McInnes came within 9 points just 4 years ago! In other terms, that was only one win at Pittodrie, and a draw in Glasgow against Celtic away from being on equal points with them. So I have no doubt that a manger of the ilk of Fergie could have made that difference with the same set of players, financial circumstances etc., plus turned at least one of our many draws into the additional win that would have been required to lift the 2018 title.

[grazza]

Not likely in foreseeable future. Maybe a Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen if they were to do a sort of Brentford or Midtjylland model they can get closer and have runs in  Europa league or conference can at least bring in enough money they can hold onto better players for longer or get more for them.  Though to beat both the ugly sisters need a combination of Le Guen and Mowbury levels at the same time. 

[Mark Connolly]

3 hours ago, free beer said:

I remember it well! It won't happen until another Fergie materialises.

I was only 3 when this happened, so can't remember, but was St Mirren getting it right up Hearts on the last day an annual thing in the mid-80s?

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Theyellowbox said:

Disagree. Whether it's one or both of them in the league, the challenger needs to win pretty much every other game regardless. When they both are in, they will take points off each other, that another team probably won't. Appreciate its a harder task and less likely that both would have a poor season at the same time, but the task facing Aberdeen/Hearts or whoever doesn't change. Win all your other games (or at least do better than Rantic) and then you just need at least equal the round of games between you, Rantic and them vs each other.

I don't think the evidence regarding margins, would support the belief that non-OF clubs get closer when both Celtic and Rangers are in good health.

[Monkey Tennis]

48 minutes ago, free beer said:

Nonsense? McInnes came within 9 points just 4 years ago! In other terms, that was only one win at Pittodrie, and a draw in Glasgow against Celtic away from being on equal points with them. So I have no doubt that a manger of the ilk of Fergie could have made that difference with the same set of players, financial circumstances etc., plus turned at least one of our many draws into the additional win that would have been required to lift the 2018 title.

Yes, I've already said there was a slight window when Rangers were out of the picture and Celtic were managed by Deila.  

Those circumstances aren't in play today though and aren't returning.  

It's a myth to suggest the non-OF sides just need well managed.

 

By your logic, we should have strolled the 1986 World Cup.

[Dirty Sanchez]

3 hours ago, Mark Connolly said:

I was only 3 when this happened, so can't remember, but was St Mirren getting it right up Hearts on the last day an annual thing in the mid-80s?

Hearts fans actually invaded the Love Street pitch at the end of that 5-2 defeat, for some reason.

So we had away fans invading our pitch, on the last day of the season, two years in a row after five goal scorelines.

[Elixir]

19 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Nah. We wouldn't have won it in 2005/06. The team had come together too late to have a proper pre-season and the squad was too thin. We did have the best starting eleven, but that doesn't win you a league.

We could have won it in 2006/07 if we'd kept the band together and built properly. 2005/06 we were always going to run out of steam. We'd have been much closer without the madness, but winning it that season was always unlikely.

This is also true. Even if we didn't win it in 2006, in a parallel universe if we could have had stability, kept Burley and Skacel while adding ballers like Pinilla, 2007 could have been the one.

 

18 hours ago, coprolite said:

No it wasn't. 91.

If we're going down that route, we were closer in 1986 (haha lol). Hertz in '98 was the most recent credible title challenge in what was a very strong league.

 

7 hours ago, Willie adie said:

Back in 1985 obviously we had yet to see the Souness era start but even then Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen were still top sides and all three had runs to at least last 8 in Europe within the next 4 years,

I hope a provincial club can win it in future but I can't see anything changing until they are either out of the league or a club is bought over and millions thrown at it

Provincial clubs have won it every year since 1960, m8.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, Swello said:

1991 was the last actual (non-fantasy) title challenge when Aberdeen took Rangers to the last game decider

 

4 hours ago, AndyM said:

Agreed. For me 1991 was the last hurrah on non OF teams challenging for the title. 31 years ago. Since then it's been nothing more than flattering to deceive from the diddies.

How exactly did the 1997-98 season not see a credible non Old Firm title challenge? Look at the table at the start of April with six games left, then look at the remaining results for all three teams. In the end we finished five points behind Rangers and seven behind Celtic, before beating Rangers in the Scottish Cup Final. That is proof enough of how in there Hearts were that season.

That Hearts team was phenomenal but was up against the likes of Larsson and Gascoigne.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Elixir

[Hoose Rice]

54 minutes ago, Elixir said:

This is also true. Even if we didn't win it in 2006, in a parallel universe if we could have had stability, kept Burley and Skacel while adding ballers like Pinilla, 2007 could have been the one.

 

If we're going down that route, we were closer in 1986 (haha lol). Hertz in '98 was the most recent credible title challenge in what was a very strong league.

 

Provincial clubs have won it every year since 1960, m8.

 

 

 

 

How exactly did the 1997-98 season not see a credible non Old Firm title challenge? Look at the table at the start of April with six games left, then look at the remaining results for all three teams. In the end we finished five points behind Rangers and seven behind Celtic, before beating Rangers in the Scottish Cup Final. That is proof enough of how in there Hearts were that season.

That Hearts team was phenomenal but was up against the likes of Larsson and Gascoigne.

There was not at any point that season where anyone thought Hearts would win the league.  Was all about Celtc stopping 10.  Hearts didnt even win one league game against any of them two in the league all season. 

[VincentGuerin]

24 minutes ago, Hoose Rice said:

There was not at any point that season where anyone thought Hearts would win the league.  Was all about Celtc stopping 10.  Hearts didnt even win one league game against any of them two in the league all season. 

Rewriting History thread for this pish.

Hearts went into April 2 points off the top of the league, 1 point ahead of Rangers, all having played the same number of games, having just drawn away to Celtic (and having drawn at Ibrox three games previously). Three draws against the OF in a row at that point, and scudding the other teams week-in-week-out. No more trips to Glasgow left.

It was very much on and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/games/199803281.html

Edited July 25, 2022 by VincentGuerin

[Hoose Rice]

2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Rewriting History thread for this pish.

Hearts went into April 2 points off the top of the league, 1 point ahead of Rangers, all having played the same number of games, having just drawn away to Celtic (and having drawn at Ibrox three games previously). Three draws against the OF in a row at that point, and scudding the other teams week-in-week-out. It was very much on and it's silly to pretend otherwise.

https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/games/199803281.html

Just remembering what I did at the time mate.  Cant remember anyone ever saying was a 3 way title challenge.  Looking back Hearts won 2 games from the end of Feb until end of the season.  Aberdeen took it last day.  Bit of a difference. 

[VincentGuerin]

21 minutes ago, Hoose Rice said:

Just remembering what I did at the time mate.  Cant remember anyone ever saying was a 3 way title challenge.  Looking back Hearts won 2 games from the end of Feb until end of the season.  Aberdeen took it last day.  Bit of a difference. 

Well, yes. But 1998 was seven years after 1991, which is why people said it was the last proper title challenge.

And I think Hibs supporters probably choose to remember that season a bit differently.

Hearts didn't drop out until losing to Rangers three games from the end. Squad depth caught up in the end, and, as JJ subsequently said himself, taking injuries into account to prioritise the cup final.

As for form, yes, Hearts started drawing after February. But Celtic only won 4 games after February, and they won the league. It was a proper title race with points dropped everywhere. A great season.

To say it wasn't a proper title challenge is silly. There hasn't been one since.

Edited July 25, 2022 by VincentGuerin

[coprolite]

1 hour ago, Elixir said:

 

 

If we're going down that route, we were closer in 1986 (haha lol). Hertz in '98 was the most recent credible title challenge in what was a very strong league.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. Thread rules stipulate a 36 year period.  Albert Kidd day is time-barred. 

[Monkey Tennis]

33 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Sorry. Thread rules stipulate a 36 year period.  Albert Kidd day is time-barred. 

Yes, the stipulation is wrong though.  It should be 37 years. 

Albert Kidd started the whole bloody era.

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 hours ago, free beer said:

Nonsense? McInnes came within 9 points just 4 years ago! In other terms, that was only one win at Pittodrie, and a draw in Glasgow against Celtic away from being on equal points with them. So I have no doubt that a manger of the ilk of Fergie could have made that difference with the same set of players, financial circumstances etc., plus turned at least one of our many draws into the additional win that would have been required to lift the 2018 title.

You seem to be saying they had their best chance in years and failed, but use it to support the view that it could still happen, even when Rangers and Celtic are stronger.

Makes sense...

[VincentGuerin]

6 hours ago, free beer said:

Nonsense? McInnes came within 9 points just 4 years ago! In other terms, that was only one win at Pittodrie, and a draw in Glasgow against Celtic away from being on equal points with them. So I have no doubt that a manger of the ilk of Fergie could have made that difference with the same set of players, financial circumstances etc., plus turned at least one of our many draws into the additional win that would have been required to lift the 2018 title.

No he didn't. He won a friendly at Parkhead to make 12 points 9 points on the last day of the season after Celtic had put their feet up. Celtic took 1 point from two home games after winning the league.

Aberdeen were nowhere near that season whatsoever.