gannonball Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Just now, VincentGuerin said: Celtic have also been run pretty badly. It's what allowed them to go from a seemingly bullet-proof position to failing to win ten in a row. We get this angle a lot. Clubs should show more ambition. They should be 'run better'. What does this actually mean? What's the practical application of this? You can't spend a lot on wages, so you need to take time building a side. Bosman allows the Old Firm to take our better players for free after we work to develop them (Souttar). If we over-spend, we get criticised for risking the future of the club, and plenty of Scottish clubs have had financial crises, but if we build slowly and live within our means then we can't win and are criticised for not having ambition. What would you have Hearts do differently, for example? What's your examples of our failings? For the Romanov era I think that deserves a thread on its own however that was a basket case in itself where inefficiencies are always going to present themselves easily with an egotistical owner. As for recent Hearts too much trust was placed in one man for way too long who was now a bit of a dinosaur (Levein), he signed high wage foreigners on long term contracts with little or no experience of British football which was quite high risk. Add in the balls ups with the new stand and and somehow managing to be relegated again despite having a massive budget to those in around them. Hearts are obviously doing very well now but a lot of the FoH money seemed to be pissed up agains the wall for me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said: The point's a real one though, isn't it? Rangers, in guises old and new could scarcely have been run any worse. First of all they spent so ridiculously that they went bust. The re-birth limped up the divisions falteringly, wasting money, treating us all to the joy of the banter years. And yet, they've reached their inevitable, currently strong position. That's just because of their size and their spending power. That will always see the two of them emerge on top. The scale of the advantage is such that even when they make a mess of it, their power endures. I get what you are saying but there owners have absorbed over 100 million in losses to get them there, and that’s ignoring the whole newco debt stuff. They have owners who are happy to absorb heavy losses year on year. If it wasn’t for them they would probably still be just trying to be best of the rest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 9 minutes ago, gannonball said: I get what you are saying but there owners have absorbed over 100 million in losses to get them there, and that’s ignoring the whole newco debt stuff. They have owners who are happy to absorb heavy losses year on year. If it wasn’t for them they would probably still be just trying to be best of the rest. How come their owners are able and prepared to do that, when Stenhousemuir's just stubbornly refuse? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: How come their owners are able and prepared to do that, when Stenhousemuir's just stubbornly refuse? I have no idea, our owners would refuse to do the same and I’m ok with that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, gannonball said: For the Romanov era I think that deserves a thread on its own however that was a basket case in itself where inefficiencies are always going to present themselves easily with an egotistical owner. As for recent Hearts too much trust was placed in one man for way too long who was now a bit of a dinosaur (Levein), he signed high wage foreigners on long term contracts with little or no experience of British football which was quite high risk. Add in the balls ups with the new stand and and somehow managing to be relegated again despite having a massive budget to those in around them. Hearts are obviously doing very well now but a lot of the FoH money seemed to be pissed up agains the wall for me. Yet Celtic who were making record revenues, had their highest wage bill ever, had a superb manager in Rodgers who had assembled a superb team, were being run exemplary had their biggest ever home and away losses in Europe by PSG in the same season. Even with absolutely everything going great for Celtic when faced with greater resources you were humbled. To suggest teams like Hearts could do better is not true and you only need to look at Celtic in Europe to see this. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, gannonball said: I have no idea, our owners would refuse to do the same and I’m ok with that. I think we've established though, that the OF's massive advantages owe little to how well the clubs are run. Similarly, it's nonsensical to suggest that better running would enable the closest clubs to make any significant dents in the scale of the chasm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 80's fitba was - hugely - a more level playing field than today to the point that it scarcely merits a comparison. The fact that Aberdeen, Dundee Utd & Hearts could build teams over the course of a few years without imminent fear of their best players fucking off after a good three months is a huge difference. Financial disparity is the primary reason but Bosman was a fundamental change that happened at the same time that also had a hugely detrimental effects on mid sized teams. 1991 was the last actual (non-fantasy) title challenge when Aberdeen took Rangers to the last game decider - and it it no accident that CL money and Bosman ended our league as a competition for good. The only way the rest could win a title now was if we changed the format of the league radically to allow that (eg, a post-season playoff amongst the top 4 teams for the title because knockout formats do deliver non-OF winners now and again). I would personally be in favour of anything that allowed a slim chance, even in the knowledge that in any format, Rangers and Celtic would still have all the advantages. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin McCann Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 A combination of Sky and Bosman pretty much ended competitive leagues. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie adie Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 In the 80s Scottish football was at its best that I can remember, look at the quality of player that was overlooked for international recognition 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 6 minutes ago, ahemps said: Yet Celtic who were making record revenues, had their highest wage bill ever, had a superb manager in Rodgers who had assembled a superb team, were being run exemplary had their biggest ever home and away losses in Europe by PSG in the same season. Even with absolutely everything going great for Celtic when faced with greater resources you were humbled. To suggest teams like Hearts could do better is not true and you only need to look at Celtic in Europe to see this. Celtic could do better in Europe though? As much as I loved our era under Rodgers his style of football was never going to work agains the huge teams. Also I’m not saying Hearts should be competing for the league or anything like that but you would look to a club like that to step in should a freak season occur. However if they and the other bigger are also being poorly run then it’s never going to happen. They do seem to be making a decent footing now though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazelle83 Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 19 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: What would you have Hearts do differently, for example? What's your examples of our failings? I think we are guilty of doing the exact same thing every year. We try buy the best players we can and that's it. Pep made Barca the best team probably every by getting rid of good players and making the entire team Excel at a few things. Im not suggesting we all start passing it around like Barca. Stoke City filled their team with giants got some respectable league finishes, Bodo Glimt has had some incredible results in Europe and knocked out Celtic by their collective pressing, I think Hamilton had an excellent season under Alex Neil doing the same. I don't take much interest in football outside of Scotland, so I'm sure there are better examples (I'd be curious about Leicester winning the epl) I doubt there's much variance in what Robbie Nielson, Jim Goodwin , Jack Ross etc think and preach. It's about getting a random bunch of good players and the usual clichés. Clear your lines, run the channels, compete for the ball. Of all the managers in the league, it's rather unfortunate that the one that seems to me to think outside the box is the Celtic manager. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, gannonball said: Celtic could do better in Europe though? As much as I loved our era under Rodgers his style of football was never going to work agains the huge teams. Also I’m not saying Hearts should be competing for the league or anything like that but you would look to a club like that to step in should a freak season occur. However if they and the other bigger are also being poorly run then it’s never going to happen. They do seem to be making a decent footing now though. Your argument about how clubs are run was irrelevant, wasn't it? Accept that. The scale of the gap is too large for such things to matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Judge Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 53 minutes ago, gannonball said: For the Romanov era I think that deserves a thread on its own however that was a basket case in itself where inefficiencies are always going to present themselves easily with an egotistical owner. As for recent Hearts too much trust was placed in one man for way too long who was now a bit of a dinosaur (Levein), he signed high wage foreigners on long term contracts with little or no experience of British football which was quite high risk. Add in the balls ups with the new stand and and somehow managing to be relegated again despite having a massive budget to those in around them. Hearts are obviously doing very well now but a lot of the FoH money seemed to be pissed up agains the wall for me. Levein definitely cost Hearts the title....... Your absolute belief in the merit of your clubs achievements shakes me (but you're far from alone). If a guy like CL had only coached a bit better and wanted it more the title was his for sure 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 hour ago, gannonball said: it all depends who for me and the bookies would agree. A quick look and a team like Everton are 500/1 to win the EPL this season which I think have much the same expectancy level as Leicester had the season they won it. Contrast to Hearts who are at 80/1 to win the SPFL this season. As huge as the wage difference is now between Celtic/Sevco and the rest both could have pretty terrible seasons which is why Hearts are at 80/1. For Everton they need a lot more teams to all do that and all that happening in one season is less likely. Bookies odds aren't pure probability. They also reflect the betting market which is far from rational where football is concerned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Celtic lost 10IAR because they appointed Neil Lennon. I think they're pretty cash rich in relative terms to Scottish football. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Your argument about how clubs are run was irrelevant, wasn't it? Accept that. The scale of the gap is too large for such things to matter. The initial debate was about what would be a bigger shock. A side point was that generally the clubs you would next look to win our league haven’t been great on the pitch when you compare their finances to other clubs in the league. 24 minutes ago, The_Judge said: Levein definitely cost Hearts the title....... Your absolute belief in the merit of your clubs achievements shakes me (but you're far from alone). If a guy like CL had only coached a bit better and wanted it more the title was his for sure Yeah I never said anything like that. I don’t expect Hearts to ever really compete for the league regardless of how well they are coached or ran. All I really said said I do think a club that size winning it would not be as big a shock as Leicester, which Is just my opinion really. I don’t even know how you came to that other conclusion from my posts. 16 minutes ago, coprolite said: Bookies odds aren't pure probability. They also reflect the betting market which is far from rational where football is concerned. I am aware of that as they only go off their customer base which is why you will see shorter odds for a British clubs in Europe on a uk exchange compared to ones further afield but given the extortionate amount of money they make consistently it does show a fair bit of probability even though thats not its main aim. Edited July 25, 2022 by gannonball 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIVIFOREVER Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 If Martindale went to Hearts they'd win the league within 3 seasons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theyellowbox Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: Sorry, but this is nuts. It remained extremely unlikely during the years when Rangers were out of the picture, but it wasn't quite utterly inconceivable. Right now, it is. It's much worse when the OF clubs are fairly even, because it means two giants need overcome. It also leads to an arms race between them whereby their spending increases and the margins get yet bigger. Disagree. Whether it's one or both of them in the league, the challenger needs to win pretty much every other game regardless. When they both are in, they will take points off each other, that another team probably won't. Appreciate its a harder task and less likely that both would have a poor season at the same time, but the task facing Aberdeen/Hearts or whoever doesn't change. Win all your other games (or at least do better than Rantic) and then you just need at least equal the round of games between you, Rantic and them vs each other. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 56 minutes ago, Swello said: The only way the rest could win a title now was if we changed the format of the league radically to allow that (eg, a post-season playoff amongst the top 4 teams for the title because knockout formats do deliver non-OF winners now and again). I would personally be in favour of anything that allowed a slim chance, even in the knowledge that in any format, Rangers and Celtic would still have all the advantages. Bayern Munich are apparently open to this for the Bundesliga. 10iar is probably a bit embarrassing for them in reality. The OF would probably still win 19/20 leagues in a playoff as they would almost always be 1st and 2nd meaning the 3rd or 4th team has to beat them both to win it but still that 1 season out of 20 would be the most memorable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoose Rice Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, ahemps said: Bayern Munich are apparently open to this for the Bundesliga. 10iar is probably a bit embarrassing for them in reality. The OF would probably still win 19/20 leagues in a playoff as they would almost always be 1st and 2nd meaning the 3rd or 4th team has to beat them both to win it but still that 1 season out of 20 would be the most memorable. They would never vote it through. Aberdeen fucked the voting system change to do such things. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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