Birth rates / Fertility

[Thorongil]

People love problems/drama. It’s what they do because we don’t have the Black Death or largely have to live in fear of crop failure or bears and wolves devouring us as we sleep.

The birth rate is too high - OMG what a catastrophe, what are we going to do?!?!?!

The birth rate is dropping - OMg, what a catastrophe, what are we going to do?!?!?

They pretend to be worried but it’s all about the dopamine and that feeling that THEY are the ones “in the know” and that if people would only listen to THEIR wisdom then they can save everyone. It’s deeply narcissistic.

[DMCs]

46 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

For some at the bottom I'd be prepared to accept this but for the majority, life is considerably easier than it was 40 years ago - financially and otherwise.

Sure in many respects. In terms of the affordability of housing it isn't.

[Empty It]

For some at the bottom I'd be prepared to accept this but for the majority, life is considerably easier than it was 40 years ago - financially and otherwise.

40 years ago when people were buying up all the affordable housing for buttons?

[Dawson Park Boy]

17 minutes ago, Empty It said:

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

For some at the bottom I'd be prepared to accept this but for the majority, life is considerably easier than it was 40 years ago - financially and otherwise.

40 years ago when people were buying up all the affordable housing for buttons?

And paying 15% plus interest rates on mortgages.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

2 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

And paying 15% plus interest rates on mortgages.

Mortgages on ex council houses, not price inflated private properties.

[Thorongil]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

For some at the bottom I'd be prepared to accept this but for the majority, life is considerably easier than it was 40 years ago - financially and otherwise.

I dunno about that.

[Jambomo]

I don’t think it’s just a lifestyle/cost thing., though those are big factors for many.

Women are seen to be people who should want kids, it’s kind of assumed that wanting them is born into us in some way. It’s not the case at all I think for a lot of us.

I can only speak for myself but I have never at any point felt a desire to have kids in fact I knew when I was a little girl I wouldn’t and my mum told me when I was around 14 that I told her I didn’t like them. She probably thought I’d grow out of it but I never did. 

I think now women have more choice than even my own parents did. If we don’t want it for our lives we aren’t forced into motherhood as previous generations were.

[Thorongil]

The more educated a society is and the higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate will be. 
 

This is because having kids is, for a large part, soul destroying labour, pressure, obligation and responsibility. If you care about them that is.

I have 2 and could not possibly have any more. They are great kids but they have taken so much out of both me and my wife. Not their fault, just the reality of parenthood. 

I think there is something not quite right or a level of being unevolved socially or psychologically if you have loads of kids. Any more than 3 is insanity and is unfair on the kids themselves. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

3 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

The more educated a society is and the higher the standard of living, the lower the birth rate will be. 
 

This is because having kids is, for a large part, soul destroying labour, pressure, obligation and responsibility. If you care about them that is.

I have 2 and could not possibly have any more. They are great kids but they have taken so much out of both me and my wife. Not their fault, just the reality of parenthood. 

I think there is something not quite right or a level of being unevolved socially or psychologically if you have loads of kids. Any more than 3 is insanity and is unfair on the kids themselves. 

Yes, that seems about right.

We had 3 and that was the maximum for us but, of course, everyone’s different.

The great bit is that when you get them past the horrible stage, you end up with great friends and, all going well, lovely grandchildren where you get all the joy without most of the work.

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Jambomo said:

I don’t think it’s just a lifestyle/cost thing., though those are big factors for many.

Women are seen to be people who should want kids, it’s kind of assumed that wanting them is born into us in some way. It’s not the case at all I think for a lot of us.

I can only speak for myself but I have never at any point felt a desire to have kids in fact I knew when I was a little girl I wouldn’t and my mum told me when I was around 14 that I told her I didn’t like them. She probably thought I’d grow out of it but I never did. 

I think now women have more choice than even my own parents did. If we don’t want it for our lives we aren’t forced into motherhood as previous generations were.

Have you had pressure from your family or society to have kids? 

[RH33]

1 hour ago, Jambomo said:

I don’t think it’s just a lifestyle/cost thing., though those are big factors for many.

Women are seen to be people who should want kids, it’s kind of assumed that wanting them is born into us in some way. It’s not the case at all I think for a lot of us.

I can only speak for myself but I have never at any point felt a desire to have kids in fact I knew when I was a little girl I wouldn’t and my mum told me when I was around 14 that I told her I didn’t like them. She probably thought I’d grow out of it but I never did. 

I think now women have more choice than even my own parents did. If we don’t want it for our lives we aren’t forced into motherhood as previous generations were.

I always wanted kids but I know others who don't and respect and understand that. It's hard work, you have no money and peeing results in four simultaneous crises that need you now!

[DMCs]

12 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

In terms of multiples of income required to secure a loan and also the size of the deposit required I would absolutely agree.

In terms of monthly mortgage repayments and specifically monthly rent (which was what the original point was) then no, not at the moment, for the majority of people.

That's not the case. See page 15 in this report. BN161.pdf

EDIT: apologies I meant page 12

Edited July 17, 2022 by DMCs

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

Mate, instead of trying to score points off me, you need to talk to some actual women. 

You've tried that before mate, when you were lecturing everyone about being dirty b*****d men, but then you refused to the same approach by talking to trans people when you were "just trying to understand" that particular issue. 

[The Moonster]

Just now, oaksoft said:

Mate, instead of trying to score points off me, you need to talk to some actual women. 

I'm not trying to score points, I thought I was having a debate and was asking you the basis for your opinion. If you want to be a silly old fool about it then we'll leave it there. 

[Alert Mongoose]

It's absolutely right that people should have the choice and be free from personal implications from those choices. But somewhere down the line we need to work out who is going to support an aging population. The birth rate we currently have is being propped up to a material degree by people who are really struggling to look after themselves never mind more children.

I'm the first to admit to glancing (with a hint of jealousy) over the fence at those who have who have decided not to have kids from a lifestyle point of view.

However I, rightly or wrongly, see that as an extension of the me, me, me culture that is going to get society in trouble further down the line.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Alert Mongoose

[Bairnardo]

Just now, oaksoft said:

Did I?

Yeah you did mate. You were certainly offered that advice a few times in the thread. 

[Bairnardo]

I don't recall refusing anything.
Stop misrepresenting my views.
And there's no need to put "just trying to understand" in quotes given that not one of you could explain what a woman was (except for one ridiculous attempt by Welshy I think who made the ludicrous claim that a woman is anyone who wants to be one - in other words a woman is a woman - what a farcical cyclic word salad that was).
 

[emoji23]

Fair play mate that did get a wee chuckle.

[Thorongil]

17 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Which part?

The people at the bottom struggling more nowadays or the majority of people finding things easier now?

Both, I think. Though it’s very complicated. In most ways there has never been a better time to be alive than right now, but in many ways people encounter challenges that are different and in some incidences greater than the challenges faced in 1980.

[ICTChris]

It’s odd - there is societal pressure on women to have children but at the same time there is societal pressure against it. People referring to bringing up children as being a waste of their lives in this thread is a good example of this. The opprobrium dished out to “full time mummies” is another example.

[Thorongil]

17 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

That's the bit which rankles my daughters. It's the assumption from older people (usually other women) that they don't really know what they're talking about when they say they don't want kids.

It's great to see so many women make these sorts of decision for themselves but there's definitely a pressure of expectation. People mean well but they don't realise how shite they can make young women feel who don't want to have kids.

It doesn't even end when they become too old for kids because then the questions start to be about "why did you not have kids". I wouldn't want to be the person who asked either of my two that particular question.

There's cultural aspects to it as well. Some cultures are very difficult to deal with for those who want to do anything differently from the norm.

From my perspective, my wife and I never raise the issue of grandkids. If it happens, it happens. Either way, it's none of our business and we don't stick our noses in. You just have to respect people's right to make their own decisions in life and give them space to do just that. They know we respect whatever they decide and that's as far as our involvement goes.

One final note is that when they find life partners, they're going to have to address that issue as early as possible to make sure they don't store up problems for the future with their partner or their partner's family.

Things would be a lot better if people just left others alone to live life their own way TBH.

100%. Hard to see how anyone can disagree with this. 
I’m male and I remember from about the age of 22 onward being pressured and asked awkward questions about when would I find a nice girl, get married, settle down, have kids. 
I started to dread family events, as I was absolutely being judged on this stuff. At about 26 I met my now wife and all that stuff followed but I felt a lot of social pressure before that and it was a relief to be free of it. 

I will never do that stuff to my kids, or to anyone really.