Birth rates / Fertility

[vikingTON]

And in case Marx and Engels aren't enough, we can also look at the anarchist left. Bakunin's Revolutionary Catechism calls for (emphasis mine):

Quote

 

Abolition not of the natural family but of the legal family founded on law and property. Religious and civil marriage to be replaced by free marriage. Adult men and women have the right to unite and separate as they please, nor has society the right to hinder their union or to force them to maintain it. With the abolition of the right of inheritance and the education of children assured by society, all the legal reasons for the irrevocability of marriage will disappear. The union of a man and a woman must be free, for a free choice is the indispensable condition for moral sincerity. In marriage, man and woman must enjoy absolute liberty. Neither violence nor passion nor rights surrendered in the past can justify an invasion by one of the liberty of another, and every such invasion shall be considered a crime.

From the moment of pregnancy to birth, a woman and her children shall be subsidized by the communal organization. Women who wish to nurse and wean their children shall also be subsidized.

Parents shall have the right to care for and guide the education of their children, under the ultimate control of the commune which retains the right and the obligation to take children away from parents who, by example or by cruel and inhuman treatment, demoralize or otherwise hinder the physical and mental development of their children.

 Children belong neither to their parents nor to society. They belong to themselves and to their own future liberty. Until old enough to take care of themselves, children must be brought up under the guidance of their elders. It is true that parents are their natural tutors, but since the very future of the commune itself depends upon the intellectual and moral training it gives to children, the commune must be the tutor. The freedom of adults is possible only when the free society looks after the education of minors.

 

TL;Dr - There are absolutely no "obligations to loved ones" that the anarchist left would therefore uphold over the principle of individual liberty, and the commitment to communal support is central to anarchism as well. 

[BFTD]

4 hours ago, SweeperDee said:

Top way to go. Syringe driver of dia, oxy and regular morphine would be fantastic. Fully on board of the NHS contribute or die model.

Our betters won't stand for that. Unless you've made a proper contribution, you'll not be getting off that easy.

It'll be a bag of rusty razors after digging your own unmarked grave, m'laddo.

[Monkey Tennis]

48 minutes ago, virginton said:

And in case Marx and Engels aren't enough, we can also look at the anarchist left. Bakunin's Revolutionary Catechism calls for (emphasis mine):

TL;Dr - There are absolutely no "obligations to loved ones" that the anarchist left would therefore uphold over the principle of individual liberty, and the commitment to communal support is central to anarchism as well. 

What, the extreme left aren't fans of the traditional nuclear family?

You're full of revelations today.

 

 

Even there, you're highlighting the obvious common ground between a libertarian outlook and an anarchist one.  

Edited July 18, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[vikingTON]

18 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

What, the extreme left aren't fans of the traditional nuclear family?

Your full of revelations today.

The nuclear family is not even remotely traditional and the only self-described groups on the left who would hold your loopy position on "family obligations" are so revisionist that they actually exist on the centre right. 

Congratulations, you're now Keir Starmer. 

Quote

Even there, you're highlighting the obvious common ground between a libertarian outlook and an anarchist one.  

If you either skipped over or failed to understand the key principle of communal organisation, sure. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by vikingTON

[Monkey Tennis]

22 minutes ago, virginton said:

The nuclear family is not even remotely traditional and the only self-described groups on the left who would hold your loopy position on "family obligations" are so revisionist that they actually exist on the centre right. 

Congratulations, you're now Keir Starmer.  

I don't particularly hold a strong stance on "family obligations".   I felt the posts on here at pains to denounce the very notion, however, were a bit odd.

I'll not tell you what you are VT.    Deep down, I suspect you know.

[vikingTON]

37 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'll not tell you what you are VT.    

A bold claim given your 0% hit rate with factual reality on the thread so far. 

But please tell us more about how nuclear families are a proud and ancient tradition in society. Then explain why only 'extreme leftists' could object to,this institution, and its hare-brained notions of right and responsibilities being imposed unequally both within it and upon society as a whole.

[Monkey Tennis]

31 minutes ago, virginton said:

A bold claim given your 0% hit rate with factual reality on the thread so far. 

But please tell us more about how nuclear families are a proud and ancient tradition in society. Then explain why only 'extreme leftists' could object to,this institution, and its hare-brained notions of right and responsibilities being imposed unequally both within it and upon society as a whole.

I didn't say any of those things so do go away you tiresome little twerp.

[Satoshi]

14 hours ago, badgerthewitness said:

I think the moral choice would be providing the domestic worker with a living wage, time off, training opportunities, health care etc. I hope your upstairs-downstairs paradigm makes allowance for such basic human rights.

As well as a plan ticket home on an annual basis. Good you agree the moral choice is hiring them.

And certainly no upstairs downstairs paradigm on my part, I'm a British republican and egalitarian, there will be no curtseying. It will be a regular person doing a job without any superiority complex on any side.

Not everyone necessarily wants training opportunities in my experience.

14 hours ago, hk blues said:

And therein lies the real problem - I assume you are well-versed in how badly a significant minority are treated by their employers and not only the local families? And how do you qualify a "fair wage" - based on local market rates, home country rates or something else?  

I have no moral issue with the system but there are some deep-rooted social issues surrounding it.  

Sadly yes, and there is very much a racial element to it as well. For me fair wage would be asking them what they want to be paid and either giving them that (or more).

For me there are deep rooted issues full stop, and very much like any migrant worker, it can be part of the solution or part of the problem. If done right it's part of the solution, if bonded labour and workers mistreated it's part of the problem.

But again, good we have got over the initial perspective (not from you) that's it morally wrong to have a domestic worker. 

[hk blues]

18 hours ago, coprolite said:

You're in the Philippines right? 

My work has recently started employing in the Philippines on recommendation from an Australian firm that employs several people over there. These are qualified professionals doing jobs that we have shortages of in the UK and are paid well by local standards (so they tell us). 

This isn't outsourcing, routine admin or telesales. 

It's not ideal for domestic life, working UK hours, but it's not as bad as going to the Gulf to be mistreated. 

It's only the last five years or so that tech has made this a feasible arrangement. 

Are you hearing much about this sort of thing increasing? What's the view from the other side? 

I assume that's in Manilla? The Philippine's has been slow off the mark in terms of opening up for "ex-pat type employment".  This is for 2 main reasons IMO - the arrogance of companies here who think local talent are able to do everything and anything that experts from other countries can do - they cannot!  And, the simple complexity of operating here for foreign companies and employing foreigners. 

  Basically, the wealthy families who kinda run the show here are very happy with how things operate and have no intention or incentive to open things up.

Great to live, less so to work I'd say.

 

[vikingTON]

11 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I didn't say any of those things so do go away you tiresome little twerp.

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

 

[coprolite]

11 minutes ago, hk blues said:

I assume that's in Manilla? The Philippine's has been slow off the mark in terms of opening up for "ex-pat type employment".  This is for 2 main reasons IMO - the arrogance of companies here who think local talent are able to do everything and anything that experts from other countries can do - they cannot!  And, the simple complexity of operating here for foreign companies and employing foreigners. 

  Basically, the wealthy families who kinda run the show here are very happy with how things operate and have no intention or incentive to open things up.

Great to live, less so to work I'd say.

 

Yes, it's Manilla. We're not sending people there though. We're remotely emoying Phlilpinos to do UK work. 

There's a bit of a skills gap but the work ethic is amazing. 

[hk blues]

5 hours ago, Satoshi said:

As well as a plan ticket home on an annual basis. Good you agree the moral choice is hiring them.

And certainly no upstairs downstairs paradigm on my part, I'm a British republican and egalitarian, there will be no curtseying. It will be a regular person doing a job without any superiority complex on any side.

Not everyone necessarily wants training opportunities in my experience.

Sadly yes, and there is very much a racial element to it as well. For me fair wage would be asking them what they want to be paid and either giving them that (or more).

For me there are deep rooted issues full stop, and very much like any migrant worker, it can be part of the solution or part of the problem. If done right it's part of the solution, if bonded labour and workers mistreated it's part of the problem.

But again, good we have got over the initial perspective (not from you) that's it morally wrong to have a domestic worker. 

Whilst it is admirable to pay significantly above the market rate, this can bring an entirely unexpected negative consequence i.e. being seen as a soft touch with everything that brings.  The same goes for overall "treatment" of domestic helpers etc.

For me, the above is much more of a "problem" than any moral issue - knowing where to draw the line.  I mingled with both sides of the equation in Hong Kong and can absolutely see how difficult balancing the working relationship can be.  I'd like to say this was down to the old "They pretend to pay me and I pretend to work" scenario but it applied even in cases where the salary being paid was 3 or 4 x the going rate.  

For me, I'd have had a Domestic Helper if I had no alternative but only in that circumstance, never as a convenience because it is often anything but.

 

[hk blues]

13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Yes, it's Manilla. We're not sending people there though. We're remotely emoying Phlilpinos to do UK work. 

There's a bit of a skills gap but the work ethic is amazing. 

Ok, got it.

The skills gap is a given based on the generally lower level of education here but with incentives the better individuals are trainable.  The work ethic is an interesting one as i've heard this from others but mostly for Filipinos working abroad whilst my own experience here is quite different (to put it politely).

Howe about the pay differential between local and UK staff?  

[coprolite]

3 minutes ago, hk blues said:

Ok, got it.

The skills gap is a given based on the generally lower level of education here but with incentives the better individuals are trainable.  The work ethic is an interesting one as i've heard this from others but mostly for Filipinos working abroad whilst my own experience here is quite different (to put it politely).

Howe about the pay differential between local and UK staff?  

They're paid considerably less than UK staff but at the top of the local market range (apparently - i'm not involved in that bit). 

It's a bit odd having people on the team who are never in the office, but as ~95% of meetings are VCs now it doesn't make that much difference. 

 

[hk blues]

15 minutes ago, coprolite said:

They're paid considerably less than UK staff but at the top of the local market range (apparently - i'm not involved in that bit). 

It's a bit odd having people on the team who are never in the office, but as ~95% of meetings are VCs now it doesn't make that much difference. 

 

Cheers.

Other than the time difference such an arrangement should work perfectly.  

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

 

Are you not about 30 years of age by now?

It's a bit embarrassing that you're still coming out with this stuff.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Are you not about 30 years of age by now?

It's a bit embarrassing that you're still coming out with this stuff.

You're in your 50s or something and still seem to think that everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with your worldview is a right-wing Tory, so pipe down. 

[SuperSaints1877]

15 minutes ago, virginton said:

You're in your 50s or something and still seem to think that everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with your worldview is a right-wing Tory, so pipe down. 

You’re unlikely to hit 50. You Eldorado drinking soap dodging bin dipper.

You should respect your elders. 

[Monkey Tennis]

59 minutes ago, virginton said:

You're in your 50s or something and still seem to think that everyone who doesn't explicitly agree with your worldview is a right-wing Tory, so pipe down. 

No I don't.

Oaksoft was definitely coming at this from the right though - he generally does.

There was certainly nothing communal about his take, rendering the silly wee flight of fancy you took us on about leftist stances, desperately irrelevant.

[Theroadlesstravelled]