Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Get the reserves back up, play against same age kids and older pro,'s -learn the game and then give em a chance in the first team. Admittedly some games I'd seen were stagnant, almost non contact at times, but every spfl club should be able to manage things and bring players through their system. Agree that organisation takes some believing at times with the spfl and SFA both at fault.

The old reserve league was excellent, and should be back next season, and mandatory for all top flight clubs. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Kyle Reese said:

You are literally trying to argue that we wanted to join the lowland league instead of having a reserve league, because we wanted to be like the old firm. This is despite us organising meetings and participating in talks to try and get the reserves reinstated. If you were to take the tinted specs off for a second, you would realise that your argument is completely improbable, and based on nothing more than a dislike of HMFC. 

I am stating facts.

You are playing with the OF in the Lowland League instead of the Reserve League.

You would have been told in the meetings that the Reserve League cannot be started until they get clubs to commit to it which many clubs will not do until the new season is up and running. And there aren't enough votes in the Premiership to make a reserve league mandatory.

There was always going to be some sort of reserve league this season but Hearts were out the traps quickly to join their OF buddies in the LL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

I am stating facts.

You are playing with the OF in the Lowland League instead of the Reserve League.

You would have been told in the meetings that the Reserve League cannot be started until they get clubs to commit to it which many clubs will not do until the new season is up and running. And there aren't enough votes in the Premiership to make a reserve league mandatory.

There was always going to be some sort of reserve league this season but Hearts were out the traps quickly to join their OF buddies in the LL

Yeah, mate. We entered in to and organised talks on it as a big ruse. That is definitely the more likely scenario here. What are we like, eh? Just total rascals.

Away and stop talking such absolute nonsense. I cannot believe folk are at the stage where their dislike for HMFC clouds their grasp of reality to this degree. 🤣

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, capt_oats said:

The attempt at a reserve league rebrand was a half arsed shambles championed by "it was better in my day" type morons.

It was actually a very cynical ploy by Rangers and Celtic to get out of playing their youths in a reserve league with the aim of getting their B teams into the Scottish Leagues.

They instigated the change from U20 development league and back to a reserve league. Rangers initiated this by withdrawing from the development league in 2017. Celtic also agitated for the change. And of course the SPFL agreed because they are the OF and it doesn't really matter if Rangers and Celtic don't want to abide by youth restrictions and some other clubs also felt the over age player restriction was overly stringent. The new Reserve league was formed.

However Rangers and Celtic immediately moved to now play their development squad in the Lowland League and finally dispensed with the charade at the start of the next season as teams were now allowed to withdraw from the new Reserve League, a move the SPFL didn't see coming since they already bent over backwards to accomodate the OF, why would they now pull out.

The next obvious move is to win the LL and then push for the rules denying them promotion to be scrapped and enter SPFL league 2  and then move up the league. Will the SPFL be aware enough to stop them.. probably not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh and btw if you are reading that and thinking it seems like a long and convoluted conspiracy theory. It leaves out the multiple attempts between then and now to get Rangers and Celtic B teams straight into League 2.

They floated the idea in both 2020 and 2021 and were told to f**k off. It doesn't stop them trying to achieve their ends by a slower route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Zamora Fan said:

Hearts fans coming across a bit old firm these days in the way they react to the slightest hint of criticism IMO.

Perhaps that's where we've been going wrong this whole time in order to breakaway from diddy status.

Enough of our stoic patience and well thought out replies.

Viva la reactive headsgone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, capt_oats said:

The attempt at a reserve league rebrand was a half arsed shambles championed by "it was better in my day" type morons.

I'm not entirely sure if this will be much better. When Steve Kean appeared on SportSound he mentioned Tuesday afternoons. Which doesn't give the impression there will be an attempt at being fan friendly.

If most of the games are being played Tuesdays @ 2pm on a training pitch it's not going to shake the poor impression of glorified friendlies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm not entirely sure if this will be much better. When Steve Kean appeared on SportSound he mentioned Tuesday afternoons. Which doesn't give the impression there will be an attempt at being fan friendly.

If most of the games are being played Tuesdays @ 2pm on a training pitch it's not going to shake the poor impression of glorified friendlies.

I understand it's slightly more complicated than I'm making it out to be here, but why not play the games at the weekend?

Teams with grass can use their training ground and teams with artificial surfaces can use their actual stadiums. I don't really see why not.

I get that clubs like having midweek games to get returning players fit etc, but why not try to strike a balance with some of the games being available for fans to go to?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

I understand it's slightly more complicated than I'm making it out to be here, but why not play the games at the weekend?

Teams with grass can use their training ground and teams with artificial surfaces can use their actual stadiums. I don't really see why not.

I get that clubs like having midweek games to get returning players fit etc, but why not try to strike a balance with some of the games being available for fans to go to?

Part of it seems to be the notion that players can then be integrated into the first team for weekend games. And I suppose those that play teams from outside Scotland do so on the weekends and want that flexibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Part of it seems to be the notion that players can then be integrated into the first team for weekend games. And I suppose those that play teams from outside Scotland do so on the weekends and want that flexibility.

The other thing that's super obvious is that for a lot of teams some of their coaching/medical staff double up with both first team and reserve team.

I don't think there's really much appetite for the costs of effectively having to run two distinct teams.

Edited by capt_oats
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Really pleased the reserve league seems to be returning and hopefully Saints take it seriously. It eases the pressure around some of the younger squad members as you aren't left in a situation where there are no games (i.e. development opportunities) if you don't get them out on loan.

More senior players won't need to go weeks without a game and there is a step up in quality for those playing at U18 level and impressing. 

On that final point, I think it's why you want these games in proper stadiums in front of supporters, that's an important part of development for young players as well, experiencing that.

I'd actually be happy if they went back to old East/West format and included all full-time teams that wanted to be involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

The other thing that's super obvious is that for a lot of teams some of their coaching/medical staff double up with both first team and reserve team.

I don't think there's really much appetite for the costs of effectively having to run two distinct teams.

Not so sure on that considering the number of teams that have talked up Colts in the pyramid. There's now the 3 teams in the Lowland for the season ahead. Stranraer in the South. ICT & FC Edinburgh have recently applied to the Highland & EoSFL respectively.

Also going to be 7 SPFL sides in the Lowland Development League (u20s+2 overage player). They play Friday night football. Which does allow for those to do double duty in some roles, but does typically require a distinction in organisation with the first team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 02/07/2022 at 07:38, VincentGuerin said:

I understand it's slightly more complicated than I'm making it out to be here, but why not play the games at the weekend?

Teams with grass can use their training ground and teams with artificial surfaces can use their actual stadiums. I don't really see why not.

I get that clubs like having midweek games to get returning players fit etc, but why not try to strike a balance with some of the games being available for fans to go to?

The games aren't on the weekend because the whole point of a reserve league is to keep the guys on the peripherary of the 1st team match sharp.

A guy that is on the bench every week but barely gets on the park still needs to play in proper games. The reserve league isn't for the fans, it is for the players and keeping up development.

The initial reason for kicking the older guys out was that many of them weren't taking it seriously enough and no one was getting a benefit. The U20 league was more competitive imo and much better for the younger players instead of being held back by 30 year olds playing in a half paced kick about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Naismith’s thoughts on the matter. Again referencing the loss of the old reserve league as a hurdle to young players’ development. It should be brought back imo, and it should be the same format as it was originally with established pros mixed with young players rising through the ranks:

3F34A328-9AD8-4551-8574-31442570981F.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The games aren't on the weekend because the whole point of a reserve league is to keep the guys on the peripherary of the 1st team match sharp.

A guy that is on the bench every week but barely gets on the park still needs to play in proper games. The reserve league isn't for the fans, it is for the players and keeping up development.

The initial reason for kicking the older guys out was that many of them weren't taking it seriously enough and no one was getting a benefit. The U20 league was more competitive imo and much better for the younger players instead of being held back by 30 year olds playing in a half paced kick about.

spot on

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Reserve League was miles better than the U20 league imo. The reserve league wasn’t scrapped because older players didn’t take it seriously, it was scrapped because the TV deal collapsed and many clubs preferred to spend the money on the first team instead. When it was brought back the U20s format was not as good for bridging the gap for young players. Older first team players returning from injury and trying to work their way back in to the first team are the ideal team mates for aspiring young players because they coach them through games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The reserve league was scrapped at the behest of Walter Smith, Gordon Strachan, Craig Levein, Mark McGhee and Jimmy Calderwood. For two of those managers it was about wanting to get their players playing v English sides. For the other four it was so that they had more money to spend on the first team. The irony that years later Levein was lamenting the lack of a reserve league when at Hearts and the club having a bit more cash than he had in his United days.

The Jurassic six right there ^

 

(Edit: I missed John Hughes from the six)

Edited by Kyle Reese
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 04/07/2022 at 11:06, Kyle Reese said:

The reserve league was scrapped at the behest of Walter Smith, Gordon Strachan, Craig Levein, Mark McGhee and Jimmy Calderwood. For two of those managers it was about wanting to get their players playing v English sides. For the other four it was so that they had more money to spend on the first team. The irony that years later Levein was lamenting the lack of a reserve league when at Hearts and the club having a bit more cash than he had in his United days.

The Jurassic six right there ^

 

(Edit: I missed John Hughes from the six)

Those managers were not responsible for scrapping the reserve league...

But the main point at the time was that the reserve league was shite and they made a mistake ditching the U21 league.

Money was tight so most clubs were happy to get rid of the whole thing and and go to U19s only. Then a couple of seasons later they realised they cut back too much and went to U20s.

 

And over a decade ago when these changes were being made Rangers, Celtic, Hearts (and Hibs LOL) were trying to get their B sides in the Scottish leagues

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/sep/17/spl-restructure-old-firm-reserve-teams

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Those managers were not responsible for scrapping the reserve league...

But the main point at the time was that the reserve league was shite and they made a mistake ditching the U21 league.

Money was tight so most clubs were happy to get rid of the whole thing and and go to U19s only. Then a couple of seasons later they realised they cut back too much and went to U20s.

 

And over a decade ago when these changes were being made Rangers, Celtic, Hearts (and Hibs LOL) were trying to get their B sides in the Scottish leagues

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/sep/17/spl-restructure-old-firm-reserve-teams

 

2010 the year after the reserve league was scrapped, I think?

Reading that through it is clearly a total nonsense.😄

HMFC’s position then is no different to now. We suffered from the abolishment of the reserve league, because it left some players with nowhere to play. 

The reserve league which was infinitely better than all the pish reincarnation attempts since, was scrapped at the behest of Gordon Strachan (Celtic), Walter Smith (Rangers), Jimmy Calderwood (Aberdeen), Mark McGhee (Motherwell), Craig Levein (Dundee United), and John Hughes (Falkirk). They headed up a special SPL “think tank” and the conclusion they reached was to scrap the reserves. 

Their reasons? Well Levein is on record as citing finances being better spent on the first team than on a reserve league. The other three non-OF teams would have had the same motivation. The Old Firm wanted to play clubs outside of Scotland.

The reserve league worked fine, and all the attempts at a development league since have not been as effective at the two chief aims of providing a stepping stone from age groups to first team; and allowing fringe players to return from injury or get up to pace.

Similar to 2009/10 HMFC found the lack of a reserve league to be a barrier to player development, and keeping fringe players in with a route to break in to the first team. We entered in to and even instigated talks in to reinstating the reserves, but with time dripping away with no guarantees in place, we went down our plan B route. 

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/clubs-consider-abolishing-spl-reserve-1004448
 

It was 100% about the cost for non-OF clubs involved in the think tank, as well. 

The scrapping of the U21s was for similar reasons. Clubs in Scotland have been looking to streamline and only concentrate on the first team for years now because the the drop from the top flight can be absolutely fatal for some. For any team below Aberdeen in terms of crowds and resources, the drop could be fatal if a club goes down whilst also funding full reserves and age groups teams.

HMFC want to have full age groups from our academy up to under 18/19 or 20 and reserves. We have been loaning out players to teams outside the top flight for a good few seasons now, and the biggest issues are game time and playing the same formations and set ups as their peers and the first team. Harry Stone is a good example of a player that we would have preferred to have had playing every week in the reserves and or the younger age groups these last couple of seasons. There are others too. Instead we have been forced to send them out on loan to all and sundry.

The above is the reality of the situation and what has driven our decision to enter the lowland league. The idea that something as expensive and resource draining as that would be based on “wanting to be like the old firm” is honestly just about the stupidest suggestion I have read on here. The fact that you keep doubling down on it, and don’t just admit you had the anti-hearts specs on at the time of posting, just makes you look churlish. 😄

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...