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How will you vote in our democratically mandated indyref 2 - 19/10/2023 (compared to 2014)


Should Scotland be an independent country?   

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41 minutes ago, Zern said:

That's the caricature. The EU functions, it has elected parts and other parts are appointed by their respective countries governments. Compared to other trading blocs it has the highest standards and most benefits. The UK, by comparison, offers nothing.

Why is this a binary though? "Westminster doesn't offer...the EU offers". It seems like it's an either/or in your world view, we are shackled to Westminster or we are in the EU. There are other arrangements possible, such as joining EFTA or the EEA. There are more than two options and breaking away from Westminster does not, should not, automatically mean "join the EU". That should be a foreign policy decision taken after independence (albeit I think the majority would be for it, but you still need to settle it from the point of view of an independent country),

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4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

EFTA would do as an interim measure but we'd lack any seat at the table to represent Scottish interests.

Fair enough. A well-put reason to go the whole hog, which could be explained to the electorate in a post-independence referendum on the subject.

Edited by Eddie Hitler
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Yes 2014 

 

Couldn’t care less 2023 - will not vote 

 

I have no idea why anyone thinks a Yes vote will be returned. There’s no way there’s the same buzz for it as there was last time.
 

I think the majority of people are sick fed up of politics and politicians after the last couple year

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5 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Yes 2014 

 

Couldn’t care less 2023 - will not vote 

 

I have no idea why anyone thinks a Yes vote will be returned. There’s no way there’s the same buzz for it as there was last time.
 

I think the majority of people are sick fed up of politics and politicians after the last couple year

Remember this is like 2012 when the Section 30 was agreed, there will be plenty “buzz” in 16 months time.

By the last couple of years do you mean Covid & the political reaction to it? 

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36 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I know there are ways it can work and, if independence comes to pass, there will be a solution at the end of it. It's just another headache and, depending on how well the "divorce" goes, could be a fucking nightmare. 

If Scotland had the balls it would threaten to walk away from everything. rUK would be fucked. Sterling has been massively devalued by Brexit as it is, losing all that Scotland brings to the table from the balance of payments would hammer it again, looking at parity v USD as a minimum. All Westminster has is bluster and a constant willingness to repeatedly punch itself in the face.

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7 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Remember this is like 2012 when the Section 30 was agreed, there will be plenty “buzz” in 16 months time.

By the last couple of years do you mean Covid & the political reaction to it? 

Not just covid, I think just basically everything. I just cannot stand the hypocrisy all over the joint in regards to basically everything.
 

I have lost faith in politics and politicians and have got to the stage now where I think I realise that I do not want to have to rely on any of these chancers having an influence over anything in my life. I just have no strong feeling either way in regards to any of it 

 

That’s the general feeling I have got from family and friends too. Last time seemed completely different there was an excitement and tension about it I feel. I personally don’t think that’s here this time, feels like most people just cannot be arsed

Edited by 1320Lichtie
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Living in Germany in 2014 and never got my vote. 100% Yes when the next vote comes. Anyone that thinks we are doing well with the shower of liars, charlatans and thieves and thieves running things at Westminster, I've got a bridge you might be interested in buying

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My combination isn't in the poll. 

No vote (eta- "i had no vote" , not "i cast a no vote") in 2014 and won't vote in 2023 due to living outside Scotland. 

My opinion regularly switches between independence being too costly, disruptive and unpredictable, to thinking that it's a no brainer for Scotland because of Tories, to not giving a shite either way. 

Whatever, it would be a disaster for Wales. Don't go, tartan gonks and empty headed natters, please stay. 

Edited by coprolite
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I'm yet to be convinced that we, as an independent country, could financially make this dream actually work.

I love the romanticism and patriotism of being an independent country but remember back to 2014 when oil reserves were a huge selling point for a yes vote? They would sustain us for years to come. That proved to be a massive white elephant. We can't afford to leave and find we can't actually sustain ourselves.

For me, there's still far too many huge question marks over a number of important matters to just glibly and blindly say yes.

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1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Not necessarily, both bits of Ireland have pretty well free trade with both blocks, but for some minor checks, plus full freedom of movement. It's all sortable.

P.S. https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-trade-booming-in-post-brexit-economy-dublin-belfast-uk/

That's because one bit of Ireland is in the EU and the other bit is half in. That won't be the case with Scotland and England post Scottish independence and Scotland joining the EU.

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12 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

I'm yet to be convinced that we, as an independent country, could financially make this dream actually work.

I love the romanticism and patriotism of being an independent country but remember back to 2014 when oil reserves were a huge selling point for a yes vote? They would sustain us for years to come. That proved to be a massive white elephant. We can't afford to leave and find we can't actually sustain ourselves.

For me, there's still far too many huge question marks over a number of important matters to just glibly and blindly say yes.

It would work.  It would always work.  Whether we'd be richer or poorer is up for debate.

Actually it isn't up for debate.  On one side you have people shouting "Freeeedom" in their best Braveheart accent and the other side signing "Rule Britannia".

There isn't a debate at all sadly.  I can't see that changing and the mud-slinging will carry on.

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12 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

That's because one bit of Ireland is in the EU and the other bit is half in. That won't be the case with Scotland and England post Scottish independence and Scotland joining the EU.

It's not identical but the EU are usually pretty pragmatic about sorting out tailored arrangements. Liechtenstein's another example, full members of both the Swiss and EU single markets.

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Voted No in 2014 on the hope that a Labour government would be along soon and we would be OK in the UK. I think I have been proved wrong on that. Now a seemingly perpetual Tory government who do as they want without repercussions and a Labour party drifting further and further right. I have said on numerous times that I am not a fan of SNP( not left wingvenough).

But in an independent Scotland parties will diverge, split and new ones shall appear, and I believe a left of centre will become the government of Scotland.  We must grasp this opportunity to rid ourselves of our neighbours who we have nothing politically in common with.

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16 minutes ago, Left Back said:

It would work.  It would always work.  Whether we'd be richer or poorer is up for debate.

Actually it isn't up for debate.  On one side you have people shouting "Freeeedom" in their best Braveheart accent and the other side signing "Rule Britannia".

There isn't a debate at all sadly.  I can't see that changing and the mud-slinging will carry on.

You can see how much of a struggle things are for people currently, becoming "poorer" isnt really an option.

People rightly want to find out more, not just of what we're being sold, but actually the nuts and bolts of what it would entail. Month on month, year after year for hard working families and communities up and down the country.

My biggest fear is that the SNP smell the hint of victory and winning is the sole aim. Quite how we sustain or manage it seems to be too far down the list of priorities.

Sell the dream to people with cold, hard facts. No hyperbole, spin or anti UK sentiment.

Edited by BukyOHare
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The minute Clegg, Cameron & Milliband charged up here in 2014 to effectively beg us to stay I knew we would be fine on our own, I was very much 50/50 till that point. Johnson etc try and say we couldn't or shouldn't when they have basically zero support in Scotland should tell people a lot & the more it happens the more it puts me at ease. Unfortunately a lot of people get the fear. We have a lot they they benefit from that we would have full autonomy over.

At a more simplistic level if you want a government Scotland vote for it should also be that simple to vote YES.

If it does go ahead I hope Boris is still PM. That would work in YES favour massively.

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32 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

I'm yet to be convinced that we, as an independent country, could financially make this dream actually work.

Staying part of the UK is as much an economic risk as independence. The UK can’t make it work financially.

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36 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

I'm yet to be convinced that we, as an independent country, could financially make this dream actually work.

I love the romanticism and patriotism of being an independent country but remember back to 2014 when oil reserves were a huge selling point for a yes vote? They would sustain us for years to come. That proved to be a massive white elephant. We can't afford to leave and find we can't actually sustain ourselves.

 

Who on Earth actually believes that we couldn’t sustain ourselves? I’m aware that part of the UK’s rhetoric (as it once was with Malta) is that we’re too poor to even survive - but it is just rhetoric. The question surely is whether we’d be better or worse off - not that we, a rich nation with an advanced economy - are uniquely incapable and just too damn poor to even survive and sustain ourselves without the benevolent borrowing power of the UK.

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