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How will you vote in our democratically mandated indyref 2 - 19/10/2023 (compared to 2014)


Should Scotland be an independent country?   

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I voted Yes in 2014. I will vote Yes in 2023.

No offence to anyone, but I can't understand how the f**k anyone can live through the last decade or so and think that independence would be a bad idea. If anything, the case for independence is now much stronger than it was in 2014.

If Scotland votes No again, then it deserves everything it fucking gets.

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5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Nah. Bring your own pen so the evil yoons can't rub out your tick and change it. 

They'll just lump the yes votes in with no again, like last time.

 

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7 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

I voted Yes in 2014. I will vote Yes in 2023.

No offence to anyone, but I can't understand how the f**k anyone can live through the last decade or so and think that independence would be a bad idea. If anything, the case for independence is now much stronger than it was in 2014.

If Scotland votes No again, then it deserves everything it fucking gets.

Whit aboot ma penshun!!!!!

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12 minutes ago, joozy said:

What do you mean by that?  How is Westminster totally unaccountable?  There are regular elections, select committee hearings, oversight by a second (albeit unelected) chamber etc.  So I would argue, that there is at least some level of accountability - albeit like most political systems it is massively dysfunctional and unresponsive in other ways.  Where I'm really at a loss, though, is why things would be any different in an independent Scotland.  If anything, the experience of recent years shows that the Scottish government take pride in being just as dysfunctional and unresponsive as there counterparts at Westminster.  Just look at how long it took the FT to get the information about the taxpayer-backed guarantee the SNP gave Sanjeev Gupta in 2016.

The biggest stumbling block for accountability is the fact that you can't call someone out for their lies. Westminster has these weird rules that don't belong in a 21st century democracy.

Do you actually believe that the Scottish government takes pride in being just as dysfunctional and unresponsive as their counterparts at Westminster?

Can you give me an example of this pride?

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1 hour ago, G51 said:

The EU is almost completely unaccountable. It's a world superpower and it's starting to act like one. From it's shameful behaviour in the Mediterranean, to it's blackmail of Syriza due to the exposure of German banks to Greek debts, it throws it's weight around and doesn't particularly care who it hurts by doing so.

Literally the only good thing about the EU is the free movement of people. But we don't have to be in the EU to grant such a boon.

One mans backwards racist tips are another mans underdeveloped communities who have been shit on from enormous heights by the wealthy.

That's the caricature. The EU functions, it has elected parts and other parts are appointed by their respective countries governments. Compared to other trading blocs it has the highest standards and most benefits. The UK, by comparison, offers nothing.

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15 minutes ago, Richey Edwards said:

I voted Yes in 2014. I will vote Yes in 2023.

No offence to anyone, but I can't understand how the f**k anyone can live through the last decade or so and think that independence would be a bad idea. If anything, the case for independence is now much stronger than it was in 2014.

If Scotland votes No again, then it deserves everything it fucking gets.

Agree in general but with rUK leaving the EU it could be a hassle. After indy most of our trade will be with the rUK and it will take time to build it up to be more international. Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU that, most likely, means a hard border with the biggest trade partner. 

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I wasn’t able to vote in 2014, I will be a strong, unequivocal YES in 2023.

I’ll be knocking on doors in the run up to it, engaging with soft No’s in an effort to persuade them. 
 

If we shit ourselves again as a nation after the last 10 years of shitshow, we don’t deserve anything good to happen to us ever again. 
I’ll probably just move to the most brexity, gammony sink estate in England or Wales to serve penance on behalf of all the No voters. 

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58 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Agree in general but with rUK leaving the EU it could be a hassle. After indy most of our trade will be with the rUK and it will take time to build it up to be more international. Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU that, most likely, means a hard border with the biggest trade partner. 

Not necessarily, both bits of Ireland have pretty well free trade with both blocks, but for some minor checks, plus full freedom of movement. It's all sortable.

P.S. https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-trade-booming-in-post-brexit-economy-dublin-belfast-uk/

Edited by welshbairn
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2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Not necessarily, both bits of Ireland have pretty well free trade with both blocks, but for some minor checks, plus full freedom of movement. It's all sortable.

I know there are ways it can work and, if independence comes to pass, there will be a solution at the end of it. It's just another headache and, depending on how well the "divorce" goes, could be a fucking nightmare. 

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12 minutes ago, Anonapersona said:

The biggest stumbling block for accountability is the fact that you can't call someone out for their lies. Westminster has these weird rules that don't belong in a 21st century democracy.

Do you actually believe that the Scottish government takes pride in being just as dysfunctional and unresponsive as their counterparts at Westminster?

Can you give me an example of this pride?

Yes, I believe the Scottish government are as fully committed to being secretive, unresponsive and unaccountable as their counterparts in Westminster.  Holyrood link

And as for those rules about not being able to call someone a liar, I think it's odd that you'd consider that the biggest stumbling block for accountability and I'd argue that on balance it's a good thing that language is moderated in parliament.  But if it's really your massive bugbear, just wait til you see what happened when somebody tried to call someone out for their lies at Holyrood.... Lies!

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Voted Yes in 2014 and will do whenever given the chance again (I have to say I am not convinced we will be at the booths in 2023) because it's about a point of principle and I think Scotland should be independent.

Politicians are going to have to be of a higher calibre though; no whining about everything being everyone else's fault (but this isn't a reason to vote No, Westminster politicians do this as well).

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8 minutes ago, joozy said:

Yes, I believe the Scottish government are as fully committed to being secretive, unresponsive and unaccountable as their counterparts in Westminster.  Holyrood link

And as for those rules about not being able to call someone a liar, I think it's odd that you'd consider that the biggest stumbling block for accountability and I'd argue that on balance it's a good thing that language is moderated in parliament.  But if it's really your massive bugbear, just wait til you see what happened when somebody tried to call someone out for their lies at Holyrood.... Lies!

I'd say that's a pretty big stumbling block.

Is it the biggest? Well that depends on who you ask. I don't think it's odd, but then again I'm thousand of miles away so don't experience the trenches like you lot.

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2 hours ago, Zern said:

Oh do shut up. The EU is not he caricature that it is portrayed as, nor as monolithic. We can work with it, because it works through negotiation and recognition.

It functions. It grants us benefits. It grants us protections. We gain more than we lose.

Please state the benefits and protections and, in particular, the benefits and protections that we couldn't also obtain from some other arrangement, such as being in EFTA.

"It functions" is quite a low bar by the way; surely we could expect more than that?

I think there is a debate for an independent Scotland to have on such issues and I don't really like "but it lets us be part of something bigger!" type arguments alone because they are a bit mindless and the sort of thing that people who couldn't articulate any reasoning for a No vote last time hit out with (a much simpler "I just prefer being British/identify as British" would have been more honest in most cases and is, of course, a perfectly valid position as it's not anyone else's place to tell someone what they identify with).

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3 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Please state the benefits and protections and, in particular, the benefits and protections that we couldn't also obtain from some other arrangement, such as being in EFTA.

EFTA would do as an interim measure but we'd lack any seat at the table to represent Scottish interests.

Edited by welshbairn
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