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How will you vote in our democratically mandated indyref 2 - 19/10/2023 (compared to 2014)


Should Scotland be an independent country?   

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Scotland's destiny will once again, and rightfully, be in the hands of the people of Scotland.

How did you vote last time? Has anything significant occurred in that time that has swayed your decision? Will you vote at all?

Obviously I'll be voting Yes (again), as I'm not a servile bootlicker. 

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In the unlikely event there is a pretendy referendum in 2023, i and many other unionists will be boycotting it. I expect YES to return a banana republic 90%+ of the vote, and for the result to be ridiculed and ignored.  

Just like what happened in Catalonia in 2017, actually. 

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Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

It is our easiest route into the EU. Far easier than convincing the Brexity bits of the UK to think again.

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Just now, Zern said:

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

It is our easiest route into the EU. Far easier than convincing the Brexity bits of the UK to think again.

I can understand a lot of reasons for voting Yes/No, but voting for independence so that you can cede a chunk of that sovereignty to the EU just makes no sense to me at all. Proper galaxy brain shit.

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16 minutes ago, G51 said:

I can understand a lot of reasons for voting Yes/No, but voting for independence so that you can cede a chunk of that sovereignty to the EU just makes no sense to me at all. Proper galaxy brain shit.

It's because you think of sovereignty all wrong. We pool it to gain greater power, as part of the EU we gain much more than we could under a Brexit-type of secession that seeks isolation.

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2 minutes ago, Zern said:

It's because you think of sovereignty all wrong. We pool it to gain greater power, as part of the EU we gain much more than we could under a Brexit-type of secession that seeks isolation.

Greater power to achieve what?

I would far rather devolve power to local regions and affect real change in communities than have a very tiny influence in the shaping of global/continental policy.

The EU will always do what is right for France and Germany. It doesn't give a f*ck about anyone else.

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28 minutes ago, G51 said:

I can understand a lot of reasons for voting Yes/No, but voting for independence so that you can cede a chunk of that sovereignty to the EU just makes no sense to me at all. Proper galaxy brain shit.

IF this actually goes ahead (and I still suspect it will not), then I hope there is a proper and honest discussion about the benefits and negatives of joining the EU.

I'm not sure what percentage of Scotlands exports go to England / imports come from England, but with the UK not being in the EU it would be interesting to see what impact on these Scotland being in the EU would have on both, and whether any implications on that would outweight any positives.

Personally I'd prefer we waited until such time as we were independent and explored the landscspe whilst not in the EU before deciding that joining the EU was priority number 1.

Edited by Todd_is_God
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1 minute ago, G51 said:

Greater power to achieve what?

I would far rather devolve power to local regions and affect real change in communities than have a very tiny influence in the shaping of global/continental policy.

The EU will always do what is right for France and Germany. It doesn't give a f*ck about anyone else.

Oh do shut up. The EU is not he caricature that it is portrayed as, nor as monolithic. We can work with it, because it works through negotiation and recognition.

It functions. It grants us benefits. It grants us protections. We gain more than we lose.

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5 minutes ago, G51 said:

Greater power to achieve what?

I would far rather devolve power to local regions and affect real change in communities than have a very tiny influence in the shaping of global/continental policy.

The EU will always do what is right for France and Germany. It doesn't give a f*ck about anyone else.

And yet the the only places with any significant support to leave are backwards racist tips 

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1 minute ago, Zern said:

Oh do shut up. The EU is not he caricature that it is portrayed as, nor as monolithic. We can work with it, because it works through negotiation and recognition.

It functions. It grants us benefits. It grants us protections. We gain more than we lose.

The EU is almost completely unaccountable. It's a world superpower and it's starting to act like one. From it's shameful behaviour in the Mediterranean, to it's blackmail of Syriza due to the exposure of German banks to Greek debts, it throws it's weight around and doesn't particularly care who it hurts by doing so.

Literally the only good thing about the EU is the free movement of people. But we don't have to be in the EU to grant such a boon.

Just now, invergowrie arab said:

And yet the the only places with any significant support to leave are backwards racist tips 

One mans backwards racist tips are another mans underdeveloped communities who have been shit on from enormous heights by the wealthy.

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55 minutes ago, G51 said:

I can understand a lot of reasons for voting Yes/No, but voting for independence so that you can cede a chunk of that sovereignty to the EU just makes no sense to me at all. Proper galaxy brain shit.

No country is 100% sovereign, all rely to a degree on interdependencies with other nations. The point is on how you choose the level of those dependencies and where the optimal point is. I'd contend that an independent Scotland within the EU has more flexiblity and a more optimal sharing of interdependencies with it's neighbours than it's 9% share in UK plc.

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If you don’t go for it this time, you deserve to drown in the ever increasing depth of the river of shit that you are anchoring yourself in.

Thats about all my thoughts on it.

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42 minutes ago, G51 said:

The EU is almost completely unaccountable. It's a world superpower and it's starting to act like one. From it's shameful behaviour in the Mediterranean, to it's blackmail of Syriza due to the exposure of German banks to Greek debts, it throws it's weight around and doesn't particularly care who it hurts by doing so.

Literally the only good thing about the EU is the free movement of people. But we don't have to be in the EU to grant such a boon.

One mans backwards racist tips are another mans underdeveloped communities who have been shit on from enormous heights by the wealthy.

What about the hundreds of billions sent east to help build the economies of the new members of Eastern Europe? Greece had been taking the pish for decades, all parties lying about their economic stats to get Northern European tax payers to fund retirement at 50-55 on 80% salaries for civil servants,  teachers etc. And no serious attempt to tax their wealthy.

P.S. The EU personnel are either directly elected or nominated and voted for by the democratically elected member governments. How that makes them "almost completely unaccountable" is beyond me.

Edited by welshbairn
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35 minutes ago, G51 said:

The EU is almost completely unaccountable. It's a world superpower and it's starting to act like one. From it's shameful behaviour in the Mediterranean, to it's blackmail of Syriza due to the exposure of German banks to Greek debts, it throws it's weight around and doesn't particularly care who it hurts by doing so.

Literally the only good thing about the EU is the free movement of people. But we don't have to be in the EU to grant such a boon.

One mans backwards racist tips are another mans underdeveloped communities who have been shit on from enormous heights by the wealthy.

Westminster is totally unaccountable.

You think that's going to change?

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2 minutes ago, Anonapersona said:

Westminster is totally unaccountable.

You think that's going to change?

What do you mean by that?  How is Westminster totally unaccountable?  There are regular elections, select committee hearings, oversight by a second (albeit unelected) chamber etc.  So I would argue, that there is at least some level of accountability - albeit like most political systems it is massively dysfunctional and unresponsive in other ways.  Where I'm really at a loss, though, is why things would be any different in an independent Scotland.  If anything, the experience of recent years shows that the Scottish government take pride in being just as dysfunctional and unresponsive as there counterparts at Westminster.  Just look at how long it took the FT to get the information about the taxpayer-backed guarantee the SNP gave Sanjeev Gupta in 2016.

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