The years of discontent, 2022/23

[Monkey Tennis]

To be honest, I don't have much problem with what that teaching student allegedly said.  It maybe wasn't the wisest forum in which to express the view, but I'm ok with the sentiment.

I certainly don't regard the job as a vocation.  That damaging outlook opens the door for exploitation.  It's a job I do for money and when enough of it is lined up, I'll stop.

That doesn't mean I don't try to do it well, or don't care about it, or regard it as not mattering.  It's paid employment though.  Saying so is not disgraceful.

[hk blues]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

 It's paid employment though.  Saying so is not disgraceful.

I wonder how many applicants for a job who say they applied for the job for the money get the position?  No many I suspect.  

[Satoshi]

Her only crime was not being as able or as willing* to lie as the rest of us.

I remember someone in my work once saying that my career will go down the tubes for me if senior people think I'm only (or predominantly) interested in monetary reward.

So I make sure I don't say it, meanwhile I ensure to apply for jobs that come with significant monetary reward.

I think everyone is happy with this arrangement, and I hope I'll be long FIRE'd before I'm rumbled.

*You could also add that its probably best that people in actually important jobs like teaching / nursing don't think this way (to the same extent), but for the rest of us it's more than fair enough.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Satoshi

[19QOS19]

16 hours ago, highlandcowden said:

Could we just have a separate teachers thread,please?

It's teachers the now. When another profession has the audacity to ask for a wee bit more it'll kick off again. 

[TxRover]

3 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

It's teachers the now. When another profession has the audacity to ask for a wee bit more it'll kick off again. 

First they came for the teachers, and I said nothing…

[DeeTillEhDeh]

8 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

To be honest, I don't have much problem with what that teaching student allegedly said.  It maybe wasn't the wisest forum in which to express the view, but I'm ok with the sentiment.

I certainly don't regard the job as a vocation.  That damaging outlook opens the door for exploitation.  It's a job I do for money and when enough of it is lined up, I'll stop.

That doesn't mean I don't try to do it well, or don't care about it, or regard it as not mattering.  It's paid employment though.  Saying so is not disgraceful.

It seemed to be the only reason though - and that was a worry.  There was nothing that suggested she would actually like doing the job.

Don't get me wrong - yes the pay and holidays are good - but I also want to get job satisfaction as well - a sense of achievement.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 hours ago, hk blues said:

I wonder how many applicants for a job who say they applied for the job for the money get the position?  No many I suspect.  

Well obviously.

That's why I explicitly said she was unwise to express it in the context she did, but that the sentiment itself is sound enough.

[Monkey Tennis]

45 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

Don't get me wrong - yes the pay and holidays are good - but I also want to get job satisfaction as well - a sense of achievement.

Yes, some of that might be nice.

Let's not kid ourselves that there's loads of that to be found in our line of work though.

[Monkey Tennis]

19 hours ago, highlandcowden said:

Could we just have a separate teachers thread,please?

What's your problem?

There actually was one of those back in the day.  This thread, however, is to do with industrial unrest etc.  It's back on the first page due to the recent pay deal.  As such, it invites anyone to offer their tuppenceworth.

That's what's happened.  Not a problem is it?

[Derry Alli]

44 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, some of that might be nice.

Let's not kid ourselves that there's loads of that to be found in our line of work though.

Is it really that bad?

[Monkey Tennis]

9 minutes ago, Derry Alli said:

Is it really that bad?

I don't get a lot of fun out of it these days.  Others might though.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

17 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I don't get a lot of fun out of it these days.  Others might though.

I still enjoy it but am getting to that point in my career where I'm starting to look forward to retirement.

Some of it is cynicism about the direction education is heading - the lack of resources. behavioural issues and the genuine lack of interest some parents have in their child's education is a constant frustration. Some of it frustration that education is directed by clueless politicians. Or by people who have been in a classroom all of 5 minutes before getting seconded and telling everyone else how to teach or pushing relentlessly whatever imported pedagogical method is the flavour of the day.

I'll miss the pupils (most of them) but I won't miss some of the other shit.

Edited March 14, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

5 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I still enjoy it but am getting to that point in my career where I'm starting to look forward to retirement.

Some of it is cynicism about the direction education is heading - the lack of resources. behavioural issues and the genuine lack of interest some parents have in their child's education is a constant frustration. Some of it frustration that education is directed by clueless politicians. Or by people who have been in a classroom all of 5 minutes before getting seconded and telling everyone else how to teach or pushing relentlessly whatever imported pedagogical method is the flavour of the day.

I'll miss the pupils (most of them) but I won't miss some of the other shit.

Can I ask you about this, i feel that teaching in the sense of the behavioural stuff has all gotten a bit happy clappy, my wee boy is at nursery with kids who are really violent and through language about that would make a sailor blush, was speaking to the nursery and they say theres basically a massive explosion in behavioural issues and essentially its heightened by the lack of exclusion etc in schools. I went to school in a shitty area, but the staff still had a bit of discipline about them and didnt put up with shit, but I just feel that the no exclusion policy means everyone else gets held back by teachers having to pander to people who behave like arseholes. 

On 11/03/2023 at 22:01, DeeTillEhDeh said:

No ii) is a bigger issue than you stated. 14 out of 20 subjects failed to reach their targets for recruitment in 2021-22 (the latest available figures) - there was a 15% shortfall overall.

Biggest issues were in Physics (50% shortfall), Technology (38%)  and Maths (23%). 

It's not just pay but the reality that people just don't want to become teachers because of a variety of other issues.

In my own school there's been 2 vacancies for Maths teachers for the last 2 years - not a single applicant for either job. Our CDT department took 20 months to fill one post.  My own department had a maternity vacancy last session - we didn't get a single applicant.

Interestingly the one area where we have no issue recruiting is in Social Studies - particularly History and Modern Studies applicants.

 

Pay teachers footballers wages. 

On 12/03/2023 at 06:59, Aufc said:

You do realise that the increase in summer holiday prices affects people other than teachers? Anyone with school aged children is impacted by it. It’s one of the downsides to having children, much the same as it’s a downside of being a teacher. It was y choice to have kids and there are many upsides whereby I am happy to accept this additional cost. 

I dont feel guilty about the prospect of taking my wee guy out of school for a couple weeks a year, they just play games in the last week and we tend to go to lots of cultural stuff when we travel, probably learn more and get better benefit being with us than a school trip to m&ds. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

19 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Can I ask you about this, i feel that teaching in the sense of the behavioural stuff has all gotten a bit happy clappy, my wee boy is at nursery with kids who are really violent and through language about that would make a sailor blush, was speaking to the nursery and they say theres basically a massive explosion in behavioural issues and essentially its heightened by the lack of exclusion etc in schools. I went to school in a shitty area, but the staff still had a bit of discipline about them and didnt put up with shit, but I just feel that the no exclusion policy means everyone else gets held back by teachers having to pander to people who behave like arseholes. 

Pay teachers footballers wages. 

I dont feel guilty about the prospect of taking my wee guy out of school for a couple weeks a year, they just play games in the last week and we tend to go to lots of cultural stuff when we travel, probably learn more and get better benefit being with us than a school trip to m&ds. 

It often depends on which middle/senior manager is dealing with the issue.

There is often no real consistency - some deputes or Principal Teachers are really good at getting pupils to take responsibility, others are too busy mothering them,  that they are actually making matters worse.  Some will also do different things depending on the member of staff - and that causes its own problems.

Edited March 14, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[19QOS19]

18 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Can I ask you about this, i feel that teaching in the sense of the behavioural stuff has all gotten a bit happy clappy, my wee boy is at nursery with kids who are really violent and through language about that would make a sailor blush, was speaking to the nursery and they say theres basically a massive explosion in behavioural issues and essentially its heightened by the lack of exclusion etc in schools. I went to school in a shitty area, but the staff still had a bit of discipline about them and didnt put up with shit, but I just feel that the no exclusion policy means everyone else gets held back by teachers having to pander to people who behave like arseholes. 

Modern Britain. I went to a 'lower class' (for want of a better expression) high school and there were plenty of scumbags. You could tell a lot of them had been dragged up. I now see a lot of them with their own kids. If they weren't shown what it is to be brought up properly then there's no chance of them being able to do it themselves so the cycle continues. I'd say it's worse now though because instead of just bitching at the school gates these arseholes can plaster shit over social media having a go at the schools. In some cases the papers. Too many folk think parenting is the schools responsibility and the self-entitlement of folk nowadays is incredible - was it always like that? 

A good example of how a lot of parents behave nowadays - a colleague of mine was getting dogs abuse on a platform a few weeks ago. I went to see what was happening and TL;DR there were a couple of teenage lassies behaving like arseholes. He charged them a ticket and they got pissed off because it was an adult fare and they maintained they were kids (FWIW I thought they looked about 16 and at 10 o clock at night it's a fair assumption). The mother came down to have a go at the guard and when he told her "She called me a f£cking c£nt on the train" her response was "And I'll deal with that, but..." If that had been my mum and me and a member of the public/staff told her that's what I said, I'd have been frogmarched up the road and the conversation would have went no further. Absolutely unreal the number of people with the "no ma wean" mentality. 

[RH33]

22 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Can I ask you about this, i feel that teaching in the sense of the behavioural stuff has all gotten a bit happy clappy, my wee boy is at nursery with kids who are really violent and through language about that would make a sailor blush, was speaking to the nursery and they say theres basically a massive explosion in behavioural issues and essentially its heightened by the lack of exclusion etc in schools. I went to school in a shitty area, but the staff still had a bit of discipline about them and didnt put up with shit, but I just feel that the no exclusion policy means everyone else gets held back by teachers having to pander to people who behave like arseholes. 

During my brief spell working in a nursery, the other side of it is that there in a push to educate in mainstream no matter what. A 5 year old kid stuck in a 2-3 room because of the hoops to jump through to get placement in ASN school. There wasn't the staff to move the child into the much busier 3-5 room. The result is the child with ASN needs aren't met and other kids suffer.

As a parent, I think the whole little prince/princess and being besties with your kid is more dominant than it used to be. I'm strict on mine, there's a guy in fitting the kitchen and he commented on the girls manners etc. I love them but they need boundaries and told no.

Probably why my teenager hates me and pissed off to his dads. 

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It often depends on which senior manager is dealing with the issue.

There is often no real consistency - some deputes and really good at getting pupils to take responsibility, others are too busy mothering them,  that they are actually making matters worse.  Some will also do different things depending on the member of staff - and that causes its own problems.

Our difficulty is that the authority now offers next to nothing in terms of behaviour support, so schools have to find in-house solutions, in a climate that discourages exclusion, while staffing gets cut.

Discipline has always been about bluff, and greater numbers than before are now calling it.   It's accompanied by sharply falling attendance rates.

There are aspects to life in schools now, that would not have been recognisable to people even ten years ago.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

7 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Our difficulty is that the authority now offers next to nothing in terms of behaviour support, so schools have to find in-house solutions, in a climate that discourages exclusion, while staffing gets cut.

Discipline has always been about bluff, and greater numbers than before are now calling it.   It's accompanied by sharply falling attendance rates.

There are aspects to life in schools now, that would not have been recognisable to people even ten years ago.

There's kids in mainstream who years ago would be in a supported setting - that's almost gone. A lot of the worst pupils know there's nothing that can be done by schools - unless it's so serious the police get called - and even then it's you the teacher who has to do that.

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

46 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It often depends on which middle/senior manager is dealing with the issue.

There is often no real consistency - some deputes or Principal Teachers are really good at getting pupils to take responsibility, others are too busy mothering them,  that they are actually making matters worse.  Some will also do different things depending on the member of staff - and that causes its own problems.

I think theres a really dangerous attitude amongst some people in education, crusaders, who think that 16/17 year olds can do no wrong and that anything they do the blame must be held elsewhere ‘trauma informed’ is the big thing and i get that there are some horrible situations out there, but plenty of us saw and dealt with shite as kids that most shouldnt and didnt feel the need to carry a machete about etc. Every kid deserves a chance though, but maybe sometimes that needs to be a tough love approach. 

37 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Modern Britain. I went to a 'lower class' (for want of a better expression) high school and there were plenty of scumbags. You could tell a lot of them had been dragged up. I now see a lot of them with their own kids. If they weren't shown what it is to be brought up properly then there's no chance of them being able to do it themselves so the cycle continues. I'd say it's worse now though because instead of just bitching at the school gates these arseholes can plaster shit over social media having a go at the schools. In some cases the papers. Too many folk think parenting is the schools responsibility and the self-entitlement of folk nowadays is incredible - was it always like that? 

A good example of how a lot of parents behave nowadays - a colleague of mine was getting dogs abuse on a platform a few weeks ago. I went to see what was happening and TL;DR there were a couple of teenage lassies behaving like arseholes. He charged them a ticket and they got pissed off because it was an adult fare and they maintained they were kids (FWIW I thought they looked about 16 and at 10 o clock at night it's a fair assumption). The mother came down to have a go at the guard and when he told her "She called me a f£cking c£nt on the train" her response was "And I'll deal with that, but..." If that had been my mum and me and a member of the public/staff told her that's what I said, I'd have been frogmarched up the road and the conversation would have went no further. Absolutely unreal the number of people with the "no ma wean" mentality. 

Ive dealt with 16 year olds who’ve stabbed people, they get charged and their response is ‘ill say im sorry and get away with it’ then on the very odd occasion something like that gets to a court (has to be significantly bad) then they get away with it. One wee guy got a non custodial sentence at 17 for an attempt murder, the defence giving it ‘oh hes very sorry etc etc’ judge believed it based on social work reports, despite them breaching bail several times (over 30 times) being caught with several knives and stabbing someone else whilst awaiting trial. I think society has started down a very dangerous path where young people are allowed to behave with impunity and without recourse whilst at the same time allowing them to vote at 16 etc. The no ma wean mentality is unreal. As is the desperate need to have kids labelled to access additional money etc. 

34 minutes ago, RH33 said:

During my brief spell working in a nursery, the other side of it is that there in a push to educate in mainstream no matter what. A 5 year old kid stuck in a 2-3 room because of the hoops to jump through to get placement in ASN school. There wasn't the staff to move the child into the much busier 3-5 room. The result is the child with ASN needs aren't met and other kids suffer.

As a parent, I think the whole little prince/princess and being besties with your kid is more dominant than it used to be. I'm strict on mine, there's a guy in fitting the kitchen and he commented on the girls manners etc. I love them but they need boundaries and told no.

Probably why my teenager hates me and pissed off to his dads. 

I think its really ill thought out to have kids who are violent and disruptive in a main stream class. 
The disciplining a kid and teaching manners is so lacking in a lot of parents, videoing kids for tiktok likes when they are using really vulgar language or laughing and praising vile behaviour is incredibly common. Some people just shouldnt be parents.

[RH33]

Are the violent and disruptive because they're need are not being close to being met in that setting? 

Don't get me wrong I think there's a rise in just plain wee shits, it's why I moved the kids out of last school. But there are kids who are simply let down by the funding limitations. My very clearly dyslexic son wasn't going to get seen by the ed psyc at last school as "kids who misbehave need priority". 

He was a kid starting to struggle and with the clearest case dyslexia you'll find. In the end I asked.for access to school for a private assessment and all of a sudden time was made.

Schools are allocated x hours support staff time and a child may have x hours for them. But if that child's behaving and someone else is battering a kid then first child's ASN time soon disappears.

I'll get down off my hobby horse now. Education is broken. It's going to get worse as support staff will be cut further as councils try and reduce deficits.

 

As a society we also have to look at.how we are raising kids.