The years of discontent, 2022/23

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, Gaz said:

I’m not a teacher who martyrs himself and does three hours a night and five hours at the weekend, but I’m probably doing about 45 hours a week while getting paid for 35. That wouldn’t be acceptable in any organisation with decent labour laws, teaching shouldn’t be any different.

I'm not sure teachers want to start applying the norms of other labour contracts to their own deal consistently across the board. 

[RH33]

Other jobs have people working unpaid overtime too.....

[Gaz]

48 minutes ago, RH33 said:

Other jobs have people working unpaid overtime too.....

Then perhaps those jobs should get their unions fighting for them. It's not a race to the bottom.

Some jobs have people working 18 hours a day in sweatshops. It's not an excuse to settle for poor pay / conditions in other jobs.

[Gaz]

3 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

This is where I think the Teachers Union and the Nursing Union is missing a trick though. My Mrs is a nurse and obviously has her views on their latest offer but as I said to her - even if they gave you an extra £5000 a year you'd still be coming home moaning/ground down by the same stuff. 

I know money is at its most important just now but give me better working conditions over a small pay rise every single day. Even in my last job where I was making just a wee bit more than minimum wage the pay wasn't top of the "Why this job is shite" list. 

I see this argument, but 'better working conditions' doesn't pay for bills which, for some of my colleagues, have risen by £300/£400 a month over the past year.

[Gaz]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Presumably lesson prep etc would have taken more time in your first few years?

You are given more planning time as a new teacher to offset that.

[19QOS19]

5 minutes ago, Gaz said:

I see this argument, but 'better working conditions' doesn't pay for bills which, for some of my colleagues, have risen by £300/£400 a month over the past year.

They don't but they make a major part of your life more tolerable which in some ways is priceless. 

[parsforlife]

Teachers have every right to fight for decent working conditions and fair pay for the work they do which I think is what their striking about,  but any claims of that the wages are tough to live on are clearly BS, even probationary wages are easily enough to live on unless you insist on living in city centers

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Gaz said:

Then perhaps those jobs should get their unions fighting for them. It's not a race to the bottom.

Some jobs have people working 18 hours a day in sweatshops. It's not an excuse to settle for poor pay / conditions in other jobs.

The main jobs (though not all) that typically involve unpaid overtime are professions, including teaching, and white collar management. This is where your comparison falls down, because the job roles that are strictly regulated by working time are usually far more precarious and lesser-paid. 

Really not sure than an Amazon warehouse worker for example is sharing your deep-rooted sense of injustice that they get to clock in and clock out at precisely their set hours, while teachers work more hours than contracted. It just underlines how completely out of touch the EIS and its membership are. 

That's not to say improvements should be fought for. Regular meetings, other support periods that are regularly arranged and demanded by schools should have some compensatory value added too. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

18 hours ago, Derry Alli said:

Is it true the teachers set out for an 11% increase and have since turned down the latest 12% offer?

No and no.

The claim for 2022-23 was for 10%  - the offer was 6%.

The 11.5% (not 12%) is because they added the deal for 2023-24 (5.5%) as well.

The Scottish Government and CoSLA didn't actually offer any extra money on top of the previous offer - the additional 1% is from what they saved from Strike Days.

The revised deal on Fridsy was 7% for April 2022 to April 2023, 5% for the rest of 2023 and 2% for the first 6 months of 2024.

Edited March 5, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Monkey Tennis]

22 minutes ago, virginton said:

The main jobs (though not all) that typically involve unpaid overtime are professions, including teaching, and white collar management. This is where your comparison falls down, because the job roles that are strictly regulated by working time are usually far more precarious and lesser-paid. 

Really not sure than an Amazon warehouse worker for example is sharing your deep-rooted sense of injustice that they get to clock in and clock out at precisely their set hours, while teachers work more hours than contracted. It just underlines how completely out of touch the EIS and its membership are. 

That's not to say improvements should be fought for. Regular meetings, other support periods that are regularly arranged and demanded by schools should have some compensatory value added too. 

Most of what you say there is fair enough.

I don't think, however, that in resisting a huge decrease in wages over recent years, the EIS and its members are demonstrating that they're wildly out of touch.

Of course teachers have it better than plenty workers.  That doesn't, however, make their claims unjust.

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

No and no.

The claim for 2022-23 was for 10%  - the offer was 6%.

The 11.5% (not 12%) is because they added the deal for 2023-24 (5.5%) as well.

The Scottish Government and CoSLA didn't actually offer any extra money on top of the previous offer - the additional 1% is from what they saved from Strike Days.

There's been a new offer since that one.

[vikingTON]

14 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Most of what you say there is fair enough.

I don't think, however, that in resisting a huge decrease in wages over recent years, the EIS and its members are demonstrating that they're wildly out of touch.

Of course teachers have it better than plenty workers.  That doesn't, however, make their claims unjust.

There really hasn't been a 'huge decrease' in wages. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

19 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

There's been a new offer since that one.

I added that in to my post. @Derry Alli was talking about the deal that was turned down.

The updated deal works out as 12.35% by April 2023 and 14.6% by January 2024.

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I added that in to my post. @Derry Alli was talking about the deal that was turned down.

The updated deal works out as 12.35% by April 2023 and 14.6% by January 2024.

 

 

9 minutes ago, virginton said:

There really hasn't been a 'huge decrease' in wages. 

There has.  Since about 2011, wages have been in steep decline in real terms.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said:

 

There has.  Since about 2011, wages have been in steep decline in real terms.

We had a series of below inflation pay "rises"  - 1% was the norm.

Even when we did get a substantial pay rise many promoted staff were job-sized and didn't get the rises.  

After tax the increases in pay works out for me as a 6.3% rise in net salary from April and a 7.44% rise in net salary from next January.

[vikingTON]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

 

There has.  Since about 2011, wages have been in steep decline in real terms.

'Real terms' being the operative term, which is a cover for ignoring consistent pay increases:

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/scottish-teachers-accept-13-pay-rise-after-successful-campaign-549078

I'm sure that the rest of the public sector will be thrilled to know that the money that has been time and time again added to teachers' wages did not happen and so will be freed up for other priorities. 

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

 

in real terms.

 

2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

After tax 

 

1 hour ago, virginton said:

 It just underlines how completely out of touch the EIS and its membership are. 

Yep. 

My pay rise isn't actually much because I'll pay some of it back in tax is utterly laughable stuff. 

[Monkey Tennis]

6 minutes ago, virginton said:

'Real terms' being the operative term, which is a cover for ignoring consistent pay increases:

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/scottish-teachers

6 minutes ago, virginton said:

'Real terms' being the operative term, which is a cover for ignoring consistent pay increases:

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/scottish-teachers-accept-13-pay-rise-after-successful-campaign-549078

I'm sure that the rest of the public sector will be thrilled to know that the money that has been time and time again added to teachers' wages did not happen and so will be freed up for other priorities. 

-accept-13-pay-rise-after-successful-campaign-549078

I'm sure that the rest of the public sector will be thrilled to know that the money that has been time and time again added to teachers' wages did not happen and so will be freed up for other priorities. 

Seriously, what's your point here?

Surely the question of what has happened to pay, can only properly be considered in real terms. No?

Of course they've risen in absolute terms, but that hardly merits observing.

[Monkey Tennis]

6 minutes ago, virginton said:

 

 

Yep. 

My pay rise isn't actually much because I'll pay some of it back in tax is utterly laughable stuff. 

I didn't mention tax, so why you're quoting me here, I don't know.

[Loonytoons]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Seriously, what's your point here?

Surely the question of what has happened to pay, can only properly be considered in real terms. No?

Of course they've risen in absolute terms, but that hardly merits observing.

Public sector workers should be happy getting less and less in real terms seems to be the vibe.