The years of discontent, 2022/23

[Todd_is_God]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Once more, where are you getting this from?

Working Week and Holidays

A teacher’s full working year is 195 days. That includes 5 days of in-service training. Every year, a full-time teacher will get 40 days’ holiday at full pay, and it is pro-rated for part-time staff.

I may have been incorrect with 5.6 weeks, but even with 8 weeks it still leaves around 5-6 weeks of "holiday" as unpaid leave.

[carpetmonster]

Nickel and dime the people you’re entrusting with educating future generations to the point they’re  embittered against the system. What could go wrong? 

[Thistle_do_nicely]

13 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

The number of parts isn't relevant. The number of contracted days the pay that is divided into those parts is calculated over is.

Teachers are contracted to work 39 weeks. They get the statutory 5.6 weeks paid holiday. That is 10.2 months. 

The remaining 1.8 months of the year they are not paid for.

Wonder if retainers are a thing in teaching contracts too, although that would maybe be more of a private school perk or something, idk (I've never done anything other than standard full time/part time work - apart from a """""""long term temporary assignment""""""" which was in essence just a way to give full time workers garbage conditions i.e. no sick pay, literally zero notice needed for the employer to punt you if there was a downturn and so on)

Have worked somewhere before where apparently the wind turbine engineers had something like that in their contracts; they got paid a retainer in between assignments so they wouldn't bugger off to take work elsewhere meaning that the company would be scrambling to find the staff fulfil work orders.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Thistle_do_nicely

[TxRover]

33 minutes ago, MacDonald Jardine said:

They don't have limited ability to take time off at other times. They just don't get paid for them.

Holidays are at their most expensive because families can only take holidays during these periods too.

So if they wish to take a holiday during the term, they can simply forgo pay and leave, eh? Somehow, I think not. And exactly my point on the expense.

[vikingTON]

17 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Nickel and dime the people you’re entrusting with educating future generations to the point they’re  embittered against the system. What could go wrong? 

In what way was the most recent pay offer 'nickel and diming' them? 

[TxRover]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

In what way was the most recent pay offer 'nickel and diming' them? 

Try reading the portion of the thread @carpetmonster was responding to, then adjust your target, m8.

[Todd_is_God]

12 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Try reading the portion of the thread @carpetmonster was responding to, then adjust your target, m8.

Which part was he responding to? 

[vikingTON]

13 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Try reading the portion of the thread @carpetmonster was responding to, then adjust your target, m8.

Sit down and shut up, you absolute roaster. 

[TxRover]

9 minutes ago, virginton said:

Sit down and shut up, you absolute roaster. 

Coming from you, well, you know.

[carpetmonster]

47 minutes ago, virginton said:

In what way was the most recent pay offer 'nickel and diming' them? 

If we’re going into the forensics that teachers get paid for x amount of minutes and the minutes that they’re not teaching then they’re a bludging drain on society, then that doesn’t strike me as being overly motivational to what - should be - a fairly important job. 
 

But who am I to say? I’m not a world renowned historian striding across the Clyde Riviera like a colossus. 

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Working Week and Holidays

A teacher’s full working year is 195 days. That includes 5 days of in-service training. Every year, a full-time teacher will get 40 days’ holiday at full pay, and it is pro-rated for part-time staff.

I may have been incorrect with 5.6 weeks, but even with 8 weeks it still leaves around 5-6 weeks of "holiday" as unpaid leave.

What was your source here?

I'm a bit intrigued now.

[mike rankine]

Working Week and Holidays
A teacher’s full working year is 195 days. That includes 5 days of in-service training. Every year, a full-time teacher will get 40 days’ holiday at full pay, and it is pro-rated for part-time staff.
I may have been incorrect with 5.6 weeks, but even with 8 weeks it still leaves around 5-6 weeks of "holiday" as unpaid leave.

There's a bit of history as to why teacher contracts were re-written like this. Previously, the contracts specified the 195 days (including 5 Inservice days) and was silent on the payment of overall holidays. That led to expensive situations, often subject to abuse, whereby a teacher could be off sick for (say) 6 months on full pay and then claim they were entitled to the holidays they had missed out on during their absence. Local authorities then had to either give them further time off or pay them in lieu. It also impacted those on maternity leave. Contracts were rewritten to specify a portion as paid holidays and the remainder as "school closure" days.

However, it is disingenuous to use the revised contractual terms to suggest teachers are on 10 month contracts, and that their salaries need to be annualised by a factor of 12/10 to arrive at their "true" salary. The salary is the salary, currently £42,336 which is only paid if the teacher is employed for the full 365 days.

Those who think teachers have too many holidays should honestly try the job for a year or two. The burn out rate is incredible and more students and NQTs are leaving the profession than ever.

P.S. I say this as someone who spent 20 years in the business world before entering teaching. I spent yesterday's strike day preparing an application form for a job outwith teaching. The workload and behavioural issues have become too much and I know many other colleagues with 15-20 years experience who are also looking elsewhere.

[EvilScotsman]

15 hours ago, scottsdad said:

No, not at all. 

The strikes today are from lecturers, but others working at the universities (admin staff, cleaners, caterers, etc.) are not striking. Many people crossed the picket line to get in and go to their work.  

Some professional services staff were on strike (at least in England) - UCU isn't just for lecturers.

Edited November 25, 2022 by EvilScotsman
6am

[Melanius Mullarkey]

7 hours ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said:

Sound the @Gaz horn

Unlikely he’ll answer as statistically speaking, he’s probably on holiday.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, mike rankine said:

There's a bit of history as to why teacher contracts were re-written like this. Previously, the contracts specified the 195 days (including 5 Inservice days) and was silent on the payment of overall holidays. That led to expensive situations, often subject to abuse, whereby a teacher could be off sick for (say) 6 months on full pay and then claim they were entitled to the holidays they had missed out on during their absence. Local authorities then had to either give them further time off or pay them in lieu. It also impacted those on maternity leave. Contracts were rewritten to specify a portion as paid holidays and the remainder as "school closure" days.

However, it is disingenuous to use the revised contractual terms to suggest teachers are on 10 month contracts, and that their salaries need to be annualised by a factor of 12/10 to arrive at their "true" salary. The salary is the salary, currently £42,336 which is only paid if the teacher is employed for the full 365 days.

Those who think teachers have too many holidays should honestly try the job for a year or two. The burn out rate is incredible and more students and NQTs are leaving the profession than ever.

P.S. I say this as someone who spent 20 years in the business world before entering teaching. I spent yesterday's strike day preparing an application form for a job outwith teaching. The workload and behavioural issues have become too much and I know many other colleagues with 15-20 years experience who are also looking elsewhere.

That's interesting.  I didn't know that the holidays contained a distinction within them.

As you say though, it's entirely misleading, deliberately so, to calculate on this basis, that salaries are actually far greater than is the case.

[Todd_is_God]

1 hour ago, mike rankine said:

However, it is disingenuous to use the revised contractual terms to suggest teachers are on 10 month contracts, and that their salaries need to be annualised by a factor of 12/10 to arrive at their "true" salary.

We will respectfully disagree. In order to fairly compare the rate of pay to other professions making laughable "struggling with the cost of living" claims (like train drivers) then you need to compare the renumeration received for contracted work over the same time scale. When doing this, you see clearly that, for the work they are contracted to do, teachers are (very) well paid. You also see there is plenty of time in the calendar year where they are out of contract and could earn extra money if they are indeed struggling.

Your point about burn out and workload over and above contracted hours is a completely valid, but separate one. They aren't striking to demand improvements in that regard, and this opportunistic cash grab will do nothing to help them in that area either.

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

'I'm not getting an X% pay rise, so you don't deserve one either'

 

[hk blues]

2 minutes ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said:

'I'm not getting an X% pay rise, so you don't deserve one either'

 

I'm not sure it's as simple as that, though.  It seems to me it's more irritation that some feel they are more entitled to a bigger rise than others.  

Everyone is paying the same premium nowadays for their necessities, and thus during these special times all should get the same uplift.  For sure, that's not going to happen nor how the world works but at least some acknowledgement that it would be the right thing to do would go some way.  

[Todd_is_God]

32 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

That's interesting.  I didn't know that the holidays contained a distinction within them.

You were told this last night. You just didn't want to accept it.

32 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

As you say though, it's entirely misleading, deliberately so, to calculate on this basis, that salaries are actually far greater than is the case.

It's really not misleading. Teachers officially work 235 of the 261 working days each year, and, as such, are paid for 90% of the year.

If you and I had different jobs but a similar base salary, and you worked 5 days a week and I had every other Friday off, then I would earn YourSalary*0.9 - For all intents and purposes my salary if anyone asked would be what I actually got paid, but if I was upset about feeling I was not being paid fairly for the work I was doing, then the only fair way to compare my salary to yours would be to standardise the time frame both were calculated over.

If you don't agree with that fairly basic principle then I can only come to the conclusion that you just don't want to, probably as it doesn't fall on the side of the argument you would like to make.

What would absolutely be disingenuous btw would be for me to claim I wasn't paid for my holidays because I got no pay for every other Friday.

[Billy Jean King]

That's a reasonable point.
The only thing I'd add is that the people least likely to be working from home and most likely to therefore be impacted by train strikes are those on the lowest wages.

Have you been on a train post Covid ? Take away the students and I'd estimate we are at less than 50% of previous passengers. I have no idea how the service is still being run as it is with the drop off in passengers.

I'd hazard a guess very few in the lowest paid jobs are travelling to work by train. By nature these jobs are often unsociable hours meaning no trains running or if not the train will simply be too expensive at peak times.

Anyway might be moot with yesterday's Scotrail new offer looking like being accepted.