The years of discontent, 2022/23

[coprolite]

For many jobs, it's not a binary choice between pay rises and service provision.

If below inflation pay rises increase leavers more than they increase joiners then staffing levels will fall. It doesn't matter how many machines the nhs can pay to maintain if there's no nurses to push the buttons. 

Any shortfall in employees will be made up through agencies which will cost a fortune. Paying a premium for employees can be efficient. 

I've used nurses as an example because i know they're having retention and recruitment difficulties. It's not necessarily the same across all professions, maybe there are some that are overpaid and could recruit easily but i'd prefer not to speculate which. 

[Brother Blades]

People saying there’s only such a such pot of money need to start thinking about what type of society they want to live in, an extra few pence in the pound on income tax is well worth it when you consider the alternatives (speaking mainly NHS here). 
It’s a crying shame that these people were hailed as heroes through the pandemic & in my opinion, they were. But applause on a Thursday evening was all the reward the required. 
If I worked in the NHS I 100% would be withdrawing my labour, in fact I’d be going for an all out strike, not just targeted dates. That would soon bring the government to the table! If people then wanted to complain about loved ones dying, maybe they’d change their minds about taxation levels & what wankers they put their cross beside in the polling booth. The fact that nurses & paramedics are being blamed for this is absolutely ridiculous. Properly fund the NHS, get rid of Trident, get rid of inheritance tax loopholes, tax the rich much more than current levels. 

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

What about Diversity Officers?

 

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

For many jobs, it's not a binary choice…

Right, it’s comments like that that show we need those Diversity Officers!

[HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows]

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, I think this is an excellent time for Nurses and Teachers to be bartering for better working conditions. If there's no money available (apparently) then the Unions should be saying they'll accept that bullshit but we want to get these conditions sorted.

My experience from my wife's work (district nurse) is that it's not the pay that's the issue as such, it's the workload. They're being landed with shite that's an OT/Physio/Mental Health Nurse's job and yet they're expected to do it. One lassie even left nursing completely as it's not what she signed up for with the added workload. The managers seem to be allowed to impose what they want as well. The latest being they will be doing spot car searches; I'm not even sure that's legal. But she comes home regularly saying the management has imposed stuff and I tell her there's no chance they'd get away with it in my work without the Union at the very least discussing it.

If a job is shit, being paid more money to do it won't change your mood or motivation. Better working conditions is what they should be fighting for just now IMO and it may well encourage folk to go back to these professions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Car spot checks for what?? Stolen quality street?

[Todd_is_God]

37 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

People saying there’s only such a such pot of money need to start thinking about what type of society they want to live in, an extra few pence in the pound on income tax is well worth it when you consider the alternatives (speaking mainly NHS here). 
It’s a crying shame that these people were hailed as heroes through the pandemic & in my opinion, they were. But applause on a Thursday evening was all the reward the required. 
If I worked in the NHS I 100% would be withdrawing my labour, in fact I’d be going for an all out strike, not just targeted dates. That would soon bring the government to the table! If people then wanted to complain about loved ones dying, maybe they’d change their minds about taxation levels & what wankers they put their cross beside in the polling booth. The fact that nurses & paramedics are being blamed for this is absolutely ridiculous. Properly fund the NHS, get rid of Trident, get rid of inheritance tax loopholes, tax the rich much more than current levels. 

I agree, but the same people saying "pay them what they are worth" react with fury when any tax rises are being considered. Including National Insurance very recently.

The UK population atm seem very much in a rut whereby they want the UK Gov to spend more public money, but do not want to personally pay more into the pot to fund it.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[coprolite]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I agree, but the same people saying "pay them what they are worth" react with fury when any tax rises are being considered. Including National Insurance very recently.

I do enjoy the "these people" strawman that you're developing. Anyone who disagrees with you on anything must disagree with you on everything, and always be wrong. 

I'd be surprised if many people disapproved of the NI rise once the threshold adjustment was built in. It became a progressive tax then, up to a point. 

[19QOS19]

I'm sure that will be a great comfort to those who die waiting for an ambulance.
A great comfort.

Yeah you gave that one earlier on and I responded to it. It's irrelevant here anyway. If you don't think they should get a payrise due to the financial implications then fair enough. But don't insult the professions by saying there's no give and take when they've clearly been doing all the giving with no take for decades.

Car spot checks for what?? Stolen quality street?

Medication.

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I do enjoy the "these people" strawman that you're developing. Anyone who disagrees with you on anything must disagree with you on everything, and always be wrong. 

I'd be surprised if many people disapproved of the NI rise once the threshold adjustment was built in. It became a progressive tax then, up to a point. 

Not a single person when asked how these pay increases should be funded has responded with "increased taxes" - so how is that a "strawman"?

Didn't stop them kicking and screaming about it when it was announced, though.

 

[Brother Blades]

10 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I agree, but the same people saying "pay them what they are worth" react with fury when any tax rises are being considered. Including National Insurance very recently.

Are they though? What evidence do you have for this? I’ve not seen any surveys that have even asked that question.

Id probably agree that the same people saying give them what they want, would have disagreed with the disastrous mini budget as it did nothing for the normal working person. 
Actually, anyone who tries for one second to defend the lifting of cap on bankers bonuses, as they will go elsewhere & we need the talent, really really need to think about the consequences of losing nurses & paramedics for just one week & the thousands of dead that would cause, but no, it’s one rule for the Tories mates & another for people actually doing a worthwhile vocation. It makes me sick tbh. 
As our last elected prime minister famously said “let the bodies pile high” 

[Brother Blades]

20 minutes ago, TxRover said:

 

Right, it’s comments like that that show we need those Diversity Officers!

Under appreciated post. 

[carpetmonster]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

What about Diversity Officers?

They're pretty important if we want to get this horrific stat down. 

Black women are still four times more likely to die in pregnancy and childbirth than white women, according to new data that has reignited calls to tackle racial inequality in maternal healthcare.

 

An inquiry by the charity Birthrights found that black, brown and mixed ethnicity women reported feeling unsafe, their concerns being ignored or dismissed, denial of pain relief due to racial stereotypes, and pervasive microaggressions causing harm or distress. Their testimony was backed up by healthcare professionals.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/11/black-women-uk-maternal-mortality-rates

[Brother Blades]

11 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Not a single person when asked how these pay increases should be funded has responded with "increased taxes" - so how is that a "strawman"?

Didn't stop them kicking and screaming about it when it was announced, though.

 

I did! 

[Todd_is_God]

16 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

I did! 

And you will have noticed I agreed with you. But do you seriously believe you are in the majority with this view?

I'd hazard a guess the majority are going to be seriously considering how often, if at all, they can afford to turn the heating on over winter. If you believe they will be quite happy to chuck a few extra pence in the pound to the taxman as well then I have some magic beans i'd like to sell you.

[scottsdad]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

What is needed here is give and take on both sides but right now it's all one side. Ambulance staff striking is quite frankly unacceptable.

Striking workers have the scent of blood in their nostrils right now though and I don't think any of them care about the wider social consequences of their actions.

It's for that reason that I'm starting to lean towards more restrictions on their rights.

A bit less testosterone-fuelled ego on the part of management, strikers and their union leaders would be helpful but after sitting through decades of seemingly endless aggression in both directions, I'm not hopeful.

How many years has the health service been systematically run down for? Or teachers/paramedics/lecturers/firefighters and so on seen pay go down and workload go up? At least 12. 

It is all one side, but not the side you think. 

[FFCinthearea]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

It seems it's in the crucial run up to Christmas exams. Below is for Edinburgh but I guess these are nationwide dates.

Industrial Action 2022 | The University of Edinburgh

I see they've managed to engineer a nice long weekend out of it .

Key dates
UCU members have voted to take strike action (on a discontinuous basis) on the following dates:

Thursday 24, Friday 25 and Wednesday 30 November 2022.

[Dawson Park Boy]

6 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

And you will have noticed I agreed with you. But do you seriously believe you are in the majority with this view?

I'd hazard a guess the majority are going to be seriously considering how often, if at all, they can afford to turn the heating on over winter. If you believe they will be quite happy to chuck a few extra pence in the pound to the taxman as well then I have some magic beans i'd like to sell you.

I think everyone will just need to accept that they are going to be poorer for the next few years.

Okay, measures will be put in place to try and help the very poorest but, inevitably, some people will suffer.

Its really up to us all to try to mitigate our energy use, to shop better for food, to cook better and to generally be more economical with our money.

The forthcoming tax rises will hit the better off more, and that’s correct, but there just aren’t enough wealthy people around. Therefore all of us are in for a poorer time.

[coprolite]

47 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Not a single person when asked how these pay increases should be funded has responded with "increased taxes" - so how is that a "strawman"?

Didn't stop them kicking and screaming about it when it was announced, though.

 

Fairly sure plenty people have suggested increased taxes and been shouted down because the SG can only increase rates a bit.

I myself pointed out that payrises can (not necessarily should) be partly funded by increased tax receipts and certainly wasn't "kicking and screaming" about the eventual NIC proposal, although the original regressive version was a pile of shit. 

Being angry about a specific proposed tax rise is not the same as not entertaining the concept of tax rises. 

[scottsdad]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

It seems it's in the crucial run up to Christmas exams. Below is for Edinburgh but I guess these are nationwide dates.

Industrial Action 2022 | The University of Edinburgh

Crucial run up? 

By the end of term/semester the number of students attending classes has plummeted (and no, cheeky fuckers, not just my classes). As the weeks go by attendance drops. This is probably the least crucial part of the time. The impact on students is really minimal here. 

The bigger issue is when the strikers act to gum up the system. Refusing to mark exams is a big one. 

[Brother Blades]

9 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

And you will have noticed I agreed with you. But do you seriously believe you are in the majority with this view?

I'd hazard a guess the majority are going to be seriously considering how often, if at all, they can afford to turn the heating on over winter. If you believe they will be quite happy to chuck a few extra pence in the pound to the taxman as well then I have some magic beans i'd like to sell you.

This is an absolutely ridiculous take on things. I’m pretty sure you realise that I meant an extra few of pence on IT wasn’t aimed at people who can’t afford to pay their fuel bills or feed their families? 
I’m talking about above middle earners taking a slight change & the richest actually paying their way, slap 70% on earnings over £100k. Let’s see how many blood suckers leave. 

[coprolite]

6 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I think everyone will just need to accept that they are going to be poorer for the next few years.

Okay, measures will be put in place to try and help the very poorest but, inevitably, some people will suffer.

Its really up to us all to try to mitigate our energy use, to shop better for food, to cook better and to generally be more economical with our money.

The forthcoming tax rises will hit the better off more, and that’s correct, but there just aren’t enough wealthy people around. Therefore all of us are in for a poorer time.

Nah, i won't be accepting that at all.