The years of discontent, 2022/23

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said:

It's as good a way as any as defining "very well paid." If we want to use average salaries as a reference that will quickly get bogged down in semantics. When does 'above average ' become 'very well paid'? Top 40%, 30%, 25% etc?

I'm not particularly looking for sympathy and at no point have I argued teachers are poorly paid. But the degradation in funding and conditions does have an impact on the students. There are 6 children in my class of 30 who previously would have received extra funding and resources from the local authority because if their additional needs. Now only 2 of them get it because the assessment process takes so much longer due to cuts. That has a huge impact on both my workload and the education that those children receive.

Similarly, the job of a subject leader in primary schools in England has completely changed in the last 2 years. Primary subject leaders are now treated much more like secondary heads of department by Ofsted while, generally, not being paid at all for the extra responsibility (typically, schools only tend to pay the Maths and English leaders and many don't even do that). The role has gone from one that can be done well alongside being a full-time class teacher to one that is impossible to do within contracted hours.  That's not really an acceptable situation.

I'm still not sure why a teacher working in England is wading into a discussion about (better) paid Scottish teachers claiming they are poorly paid tbh.

Your gripes are valid, but they aren't at all relevant here.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[TxRover]

20 minutes ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said:

It's as good a way as any as defining "very well paid." If we want to use average salaries as a reference that will quickly get bogged down in semantics. When does 'above average ' become 'very well paid'? Top 40%, 30%, 25% etc?

Reading taxes over Except that tax rates are not completely indexed, and therefore the boundaries of tax rates are flexible points that move over time (effectively increasing taxes).

[scottsdad]

38 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I'm still not sure why a teacher working in England is wading into a discussion about (better) paid Scottish teachers claiming they are poorly paid tbh.

Your gripes are valid, but they aren't at all relevant here.

So...only teachers in Scotland can wade in to this discussion?

90% of your output on this thread over the last week have been about this. 

[Todd_is_God]

10 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

So...only teachers in Scotland can wade in to this discussion?

If this standard of comprehension is reflective of the ability of our teachers perhaps it's time to argue they are overpaid.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[scottsdad]

Just now, Todd_is_God said:

If this standard of comprehension is reflective of the ability of our teachers perhaps it's time to argue they are overpaid.

Further evidence of how the prof is able to run rings round you.

I would argue that a teacher in England has a better understanding of the stresses, pressures and (your obsession) days worked faced by teachers in Scotland than most posters on here.

For you to pop up and tell such a teacher - who has made a coherent point about the conditions faced by teachers - that their views are invalid because they're not in Scotland shows a shocking lack of self-awareness.

[Todd_is_God]

9 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

I would argue that a teacher in England has a better understanding of the stresses, pressures and (your obsession) days worked faced by teachers in Scotland than most posters on here.

For you to pop up and tell such a teacher - who has made a coherent point about the conditions faced by teachers - that their views are invalid because they're not in Scotland shows a shocking lack of self-awareness.

I'm very well aware of the conditions faced by teachers. I've referenced them in this thread. Let's not pretend chucking more money at teachers will make those conditions any better, or teachers themselves any happier about them.

Given pay up here is around 10% higher after 5 years, the gripes of English teachers about pay and conditions in England absolutely are irrelevant in a discussion about the pay of Scottish teachers.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[scottsdad]

Just now, Todd_is_God said:

I'm very well aware of the conditions faced by teachers. I've referenced them in this thread.

Given pay up here is around 10% higher after 5 years, the gripes of English teachers about pay and conditions in England absolutely are irrelevant in a discussion about the pay of Scottish teachers.

I still don't think you get it. 

First, this discussion is about the pay and conditions faced by teachers. 

Second, it is possible that English teachers on lower pay than Scottish ones believe that all teachers should be paid better. I'd like to hear their views, even if you want to censor who can and cannot contribute. 

Finally - and bear with me here - who are you to say who is and is not irrelevant? I'd listen to a teacher over your google-based research any day. 

[Todd_is_God]

20 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

First, this discussion is about the pay and conditions faced by teachers. 

The discussion actually began with me (correctly) answering a question about why a teacher was claiming they didn't get paid for the holidays.

Secondly, the discussion is around the teacher strike, which is fixated on a pay demand of 10%

[Todd_is_God]

28 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

it is possible that English teachers on lower pay than Scottish ones believe that all teachers should be paid better.

This is a complete word salad btw. Name me a single worker anywhere who would not say, if asked, that they believe they should be paid more.

And, in any case, English teachers being paid less than Scottish teachers does not strengthen the argument that teachers in Scotland are poorly paid.

[scottsdad]

5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

The discussion actually began with me (correctly) answering a question about why a teacher was claiming they didn't get paid for the holidays.

Secondly, the discussion is around the teacher strike, which is fixated on a pay demand of 10%

The EIS cites workload as a reason for the strike.

[scottsdad]

Just now, Todd_is_God said:

This is a complete word salad btw. Name me a single worker anywhere who would not say, if asked, that they believe they should be paid more.

And, in any case, English teachers being paid less than Scottish teachers does not strengthen the argument that teachers in Scotland are poorly paid.

It is simple enough to understand. An English teacher might feel underpaid and at the same time feel that Scottish teachers are underpaid, even though Scottish teachers get more. 

[Todd_is_God]

9 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

The EIS cites workload as a reason for the strike.

And what are their demands surrounding workload?

[RH33]

51 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

The EIS cites workload as a reason for the strike.

I was training to be a primary teacher in the early 00's. Well before I had a diagnosis and help with my MH and withdrew during third year.

I finished a BAHon with the OU and planned on the PGDE. I sorted out time in the classroom as a volunteer in 2018 and decided f**k this. Was also in helping at kids school. Partly as there was so much disenchantment in the profession around CfE but also the number of children with issues that weren't supported meant a lot of time was spent just getting the class to 3pm with minimal injuries to others (my daughter P3 class). Plus a lot of primary teachers live in a bit of an echo chamber, which may be a tad controversial. All in all I decided that the profession had changed a lot or maybe I had! Bit both probably.

[coprolite]

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

And what are their demands surrounding workload?

Not accepting any more

 

"This proposal also quite absurdly given employers' responsibilities around Fair Work and SNCT conditions of service, suggests that even more demands of teachers could have been made, adding to their already intolerable workloads, had employers chosen to do so."

 

[Monkey Tennis]

10 hours ago, RH33 said:

 

I think it was an attempt to make people realise that teachers weren't paid for all the time off they get. Salary is then pro rata'd over the year.

Effectively they are paid for the time off though, given that it's then pro rata'd.

I'm not convinced it's made people realise anything, or even represents an attempt to.  It strikes me as a weirdly redundant way of describing the pay structure.

[Todd_is_God]

9 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Effectively they are paid for the time off though, given that it's then pro rata'd.

Fucking hell no they are not.

Getting a pay slip 12 times a year ≠ getting paid for 12 months of the year.

I genuinely don't understand why you are struggling so much with the fairly basic concept of payment for 10.8 months work being spread evenly over a 12 month period.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Monkey Tennis]

6 hours ago, oaksoft said:

A bit of denial creeping into some posts here.

Teachers are well paid by almost any reasonable standard you care to mention.

 "Very well paid" you said earlier.

A little more credibility must be creeping into your posts.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

Fucking hell no they are not.

Getting a pay slip 12 times a year ≠ getting paid for 12 months of the year.

It effectively does though.

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It effectively does though.

It effectively does nothing of the sort.

[BFTD]

Cross-Border Educational Payroll Arrangements thread for this pish.