The years of discontent, 2022/23

[hk blues]

3 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

I was at school in the 1990s and even then people blamed the strike in the 1980s for lack of after school activity.

I can remember people blaming them for the fact that the school didn't have as big a rugby programme as it had pre 1980s, although that was due to the head of PE being more interested in canoeing than rugby.

John Darwin was your Head of PE?

We had Henry Hall.  

 

[Gaz]

24 minutes ago, hk blues said:

John Darwin was your Head of PE?

We had Henry Hall.  

 

The guy from Goodfellas?

[ICTChris]

9 minutes ago, Gaz said:

The guy from Goodfellas?

As far back as I could remember I wanted to be a secondary school teacher

[super_carson]

I've been in a school that added after-school clubs into the WTA before.  That seems to be uncommon though as it inevitably ate into planning and prep time more than anything else. 

[Gaz]

16 minutes ago, super_carson said:

I've been in a school that added after-school clubs into the WTA before.  That seems to be uncommon though as it inevitably ate into planning and prep time more than anything else. 

That is absolutely nuts

[super_carson]

3 hours ago, Gaz said:

That is absolutely nuts

It really was - the management were a disgrace.  The absent rate and turnover of staff in the year I was there was absolutely mental.    It was my probation year and it was just about getting through the year and out of there as fast as possible. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by super_carson

[Bairnardo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63791844

This doesn't seem like a particularly good use of the state broadcaster.... Unless the state broadcaster has an agenda of course. Or we can shortly expect a balanced article from the POV of other trade unionists not involved in the dispute.

[parsforlife]

13 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63791844

This doesn't seem like a particularly good use of the state broadcaster.... Unless the state broadcaster has an agenda of course. Or we can shortly expect a balanced article from the POV of other trade unionists not involved in the dispute.

Interesting, if your staff are reliant on tips and you not cutting their hours on short notice then that’s says a lot about you as a business and it’s not a good look,  don’t go blaming other things for you being cunty.

[scottsdad]

20 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63791844

This doesn't seem like a particularly good use of the state broadcaster.... Unless the state broadcaster has an agenda of course. Or we can shortly expect a balanced article from the POV of other trade unionists not involved in the dispute.

The narrative we all should subscribe to is that strikes are ruining Christmas.

Just remember that and everything will be fine.

[highlandcowden]

8 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

The narrative we all should subscribe to is that strikes are ruining Christmas.

Just remember that and everything will be fine.

good,i fucking hate christmas

'mon the oppressed workers of the world

[Billy Jean King]

Before the clubs ended those same teachers were dishing out the belt and the cane to children of all ages as though it was a sport.
In every profession you'll find people who absolutely love their jobs, care about their "customers", go the extra mile and are good at what they do. You'll also have those who hate their jobs and see it as a badge of honour to give fewer fucks than anyone else. And obviously you have a whole spectrum in between. In private industry, the money and promotions typically and correctly go to the former and the latter are simply left miles behind or made redundant at the first opportunity. I've previously worked in departments where some software engineers were being paid tens of thousands more than others and that's before we talk about freelance engineers pay. That's an example of how far behind some people can fall by doing the bare minimum and not caring.
In unionised sectors, it is much more difficult to reward in this way. Much more difficult. So it's not surprising that those who do care, end up leaving the profession disheartened.

I've also worked with private sector IT "professionals" on massive day rates who didn't know their arse from their elbow. There are plenty promoted massively above their ability in all areas of the private sector. Not every waster is weeded out unfortunately.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, scottsdad said:

I think it has for a long time.

When I was at school I remember teachers talking about how they used to run clubs and so on for pupils after school. Loads of sports clubs and the likes. Then the strike came in the 80s, the teachers were treated like rubbish by the government. When they came back to work they just did the job - all this extra time they put in at evenings and weekends, unpaid, just ended.

The actual demands of the job itself, were not remotely comparable back then, to what exists today though.

That easier day to day landscape definitely factored into the willingness of staff then, to do extra.

[BFTD]

I appreciate that I'm likely the only one paying attention at this stage, but I'm gone at Oaksoft's assertion that private industry rewards people who "absolutely love their jobs, care about their "customers", go the extra mile and are good at what they do"  

[RH33]

On 28/11/2022 at 17:35, Monkey Tennis said:

Fair enough.

I have honestly never heard this "unpaid holiday" lark in my life before seeing it mentioned here.  You live and learn I suppose.

I don't think it actually means anything, but it seems a strange way to express it.  What's the reason for it?

 

On 28/11/2022 at 19:08, Monkey Tennis said:

So what did the pre -2011 contract look like?

I think it was an attempt to make people realise that teachers weren't paid for all the time off they get. Salary is then pro rata'd over the year.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

23 hours ago, hk blues said:

Just one comment from me on the use of "very well paid".  You've said you disagree with that due to the demands and requirements of the job.  I would say the term it is not relative and instead absolute, you seem to think it is relative.  By your definition a pilot on 70k a year wouldn't be well paid, nor a surgeon on 85k. It all comes down to how "well paid" is defined and this is subjective.

 

If we're talking in absolutes, an easy (if arbitrary) definition of very well paid to would be anyone who is in the higher rate tax bracket. Which would exclude anyone on main teacher pay scales anywhere in the UK.

I wasn't trying to argue that teachers are badly paid, I think, broadly, our pay is alright and I voted against striking. My point about pay not matching the responsibilities was more about how my role has continuously expanded(due to cuts to other services and changing Ofsted requirements) but my pay hasn't changed to match this. 

[hk blues]

1 minute ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said:

If we're talking in absolutes, an easy (if arbitrary) definition of very well paid to would be anyone who is in the higher rate tax bracket. Which would exclude anyone on main teacher pay scales anywhere in the UK.

I wasn't trying to argue that teachers are badly paid, I think, broadly, our pay is alright and I voted against striking. My point about pay not matching the responsibilities was more about how my role has continuously expanded(due to cuts to other services and changing Ofsted requirements) but my pay hasn't changed to match this. 

I wonder why you chose to use the higher rate tax bracket as your yardstick?  We could just use the average wage and see where that leaves us?    I guess we are just confirming what I said in my initial post - what does "well paid" actually mean?

I am not disputing that you role is experiencing a "more for less" dynamic but, to be honest, this is nothing new for many of us.  I'm not saying you should give a f*** about that and not instead focus on your own issues but by the same token there may not be all that much sympathy out there.  At least no more than for any other group in the current climate.

 

[Todd_is_God]

37 minutes ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said:

If we're talking in absolutes, an easy (if arbitrary) definition of very well paid to would be anyone who is in the higher rate tax bracket. Which would exclude anyone on main teacher pay scales anywhere in the UK.

The higher rate of tax in Scotland starts at £43,663

A fully qualified teacher in Scotland earns £42,336 after 5 years, and it's already been established that teachers are contracted to work 235 of the 261 (90%) "working days" each year, 40 days of which are paid holiday.

Extrapolating their salary to 100% of the working days (otherwise you aren't comparing like for like) would take them comfortably into the higher tax rate bracket.

Thank you for confirming teachers in Scotland are indeed "very well paid"

Edited November 30, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Bairnardo]

The higher rate of tax in Scotland starts at £43,663
A fully qualified teacher in Scotland earns £42,336 after 5 years, and it's already been established that teachers are contracted to work 235 of the 261 (90%) "working days" each year.
Extrapolating their salary to 100% of the working days (otherwise you aren't comparing like for like) would take them comfortably above the higher tax rate bracket.
Thank you for confirming teachers in Scotland are indeed "very well paid"

You wouldn't pick a scale of how hard the graft is and attempt to extrapolate it out, so I have no idea why you would do this for time. Its a salary for a job done. Your money for my skills. Society needs schools, schools needs teachers, teachers need salary.


This sort of logic comes across as absolute bitterness that teachers get good time off.

The salaries you have quoted are what it costs to have a teacher. That's really the end of the matter.

[Todd_is_God]

14 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

You wouldn't pick a scale of how hard the graft is and attempt to extrapolate it out, so I have no idea why you would do this for time. Its a salary for a job done.

Graft is subjective, time is not.

Literally everyone feels they are worth more than they are paid. That doesn't, however, change the pay you get for the time you are contracted to work is very good, which reflects your skills. It's the reason why you get paid more per contracted hour than someone, for example, working in a supermarket.

I honestly couldn't give a shit how much unpaid time you get off tbh.

[hk blues]

24 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

The higher rate of tax in Scotland starts at £43,663

A fully qualified teacher in Scotland earns £42,336 after 5 years, and it's already been established that teachers are contracted to work 235 of the 261 (90%) "working days" each year, 40 days of which are paid holiday.

Extrapolating their salary to 100% of the working days (otherwise you aren't comparing like for like) would take them comfortably into the higher tax rate bracket.

Thank you for confirming teachers in Scotland are indeed "very well paid"

To be honest, you have not really helped the argument by bringing in the hours stuff, rather given those with an alternative view ammunition.

If we stick to the numbers, I'd say the numbers you state are near enough anyway (97% there anyway).