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The summer of discontent, 2022


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1 hour ago, Billy Jean King said:

We are not we are describing the shortfall as a REAL TERMS pay cut, not a cut in pay. Pay is not being cut, no one is saying that.

You know exactly what we mean too. The phrase has been used universally for decades.

Meant to say, you're now defining a 3rd thing as pay when it isn't.

You've equated the following 3 things.

1) pay

2) pay minus some outgoings

3) pay minus inflation

All 3 are completely different and you're trying to conflate them all.

I've dealt with the difference between 1) and 2) already.

3) is different again because inflation is not the same as outgoings because most people can mitigate for inflation by reducing their outgoings.

 

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1 hour ago, Aufc said:

Can it though? The two main drivers of the shit going on are fuel and gas/elec. You are pretty limited in what you can do with either of them. Yes some people can drive less but a lot of people dont have that option. You could use less gas/elec which you may get away in the summer, however, very limited in winter.

There are plenty of ways to reduce fuel usage and make fewer journeys in total (see the number of fat slobs who don't walk the length of themselves) and also ways to reduce domestic consumption as well. That's part of how a high price response should work. 

I'm really not concerned if a two car household can no longer 'afford' to run their sprogs to school in some crap SUV.

Quote

Plus it shouldnt really be that in one of the richest countries in the world we have people who have to switch their heating off or not have a hot meal to ensure they are able to survive.

Which is why those at the bottom of the income scale need to have it uplifted by inflation rates, absolutely. 

The UK is rammed with people in entirely middle-class jobs and income brackets who seem to think that they're in the bottom deciles and are entitled to this special protection though. 

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4 minutes ago, virginton said:

Low paid jobs like - what exactly? Most of the workers currently on strike or discussing strikes earn more than the median full-time wage (in some cases significantly more). 

I've already stated that those on the bottom of the income should absolutely have their income lifted with inflation. A household on £60k per year - absolutely not. So your straw man argument is safely demolished.

The people who are detached from real life are the ones who:

• want the public sector to cough up inflation-proof pay rises all round

• not pay any more tax, and

• supported disastrous virtue-signalling sanctions to back up our moral indignation about Ukraine.

Well here we are, and it turns out that in the real world you cannot have all of those things. 

Not cut public services either.  Slashing a few services would be an option to free up some money for pay rises.

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The people who are detached from real life are the ones who:
• want the public sector to cough up inflation-proof pay rises all round


Who in the public sector are you on about, exactly?
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55 minutes ago, Aufc said:

Well the only alternative is that the government put through large tax cuts to help the poorer people and put more money in their pocket. 

Also, i dont think what you say is true. Giving most people a 9% will only allow them to keep their head above water. Will help them not have to sit in their house with three jumpers on. Will help them be able to use their gas to cook themselves a hot meal every night. Giving them a 9% increase is not going to see them suddenly splashing the cash

Someone on £25k a year getting a 9% pay rise is an extra £2,250 a year. Thats an extra £187.50 a month before tax and NI etc. So maybe about an extra £140 a month in their hand. It is hardly allowing to suddenly change their lifestyle and go out and spend lots of cash. As i said above, i would think that will mostly get eaten up by gas and electricity. 

 

IMO people on £25k a year are not the priority right now. None of them should be in a situation where they are facing starvation or freezing.

We have millions in the UK earning significantly under that who could well be facing those choices and the government should be helping keep them on an even keel and them alone.

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57 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I believe that the problems of the CoL crisis will affect many more people than you imagine. 

Many working people have taken out mortgages on historic low interest rates, car loans, broadband, mobile contracts etc. They will be affected big time as they still need to pay these off. Many are up to their necks in credit card debt. 

Then you have the working young who are on low pay and zero hours contracts. Landlords will raise the rent to keep pace with their rising costs. Some of them will have car loans, broadband, mobile contracts and CC debt. 

Then you have those who have been made redundant in either of those categories. 

Then you have the long term unemployed, the sick, disabled and OAPs who for many years have struggled to eat or heat in winter.

Foodbanks are already struggling to cope. It’s going to be a very challenging winter for many people. 

I think you are out of touch with the harsh realities that many “ordinary” people are facing right now. 

We have had the impact of Brexit, Coronavirus pandemic and now a war that will affect many millions worldwide.

 

And how will giving everyone a 9% pay rise and risk the inflation figures of 18% and interest rates of 10% we saw in the 1970s help any of those people?

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1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

And how will giving everyone a 9% pay rise and risk the inflation figures of 18% and interest rates of 10% we saw in the 1970s help any of those people?

I never put that any of those arguments forward did I?

I don’t think you ever read posts accurately.

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16 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Not cut public services either.  Slashing a few services would be an option to free up some money for pay rises.

There's an element of people getting so wound up about fat cat pay rises and getting one over on the Tories that they are simply not engaging their brains and learning from the past.

We are at a tipping point here of potentially crippling inflation, interest rates and service cuts and mass unemployment the likes of which we've not seen for decades. Things look bad right now but they could easily tip into catastrophic with only a tiny push. People need to be very careful what they wish for here.

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4 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I never put that any of those arguments forward did I?

 

No because like everyone else, you're incapable of thinking more than 2 millimetres ahead of what's right in front of you.

9% pay rises means inflation will rise faster, taking interest rates with it.

Some of us have actually lived through this same scenario before.

You need to put down your 1st year university politics books and start considering how everything is inter-linked in the real world.

Edited by oaksoft
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On 28/06/2022 at 14:08, Lofarl said:

Postman and CWU member.  Royal Mail have imposed a 2% pay rise. But will give us up to 5.5% with the following changes.

A reduction in payment allowances, so a pay cut 

Rotational Sunday working at normal pay rate.  No Sunday premium.

Moving the starting times up to 3 hours later.  So no more getting home for schools

Annualised hours, so in theory a shorter delivery in summer, but hours more in Xmas.  For the same money.  So a 5 hr day will pay the same as a 10.

Reduction in sick pay.

New starters earning a lower hourly rate, but more hours contracted

No cutting of duty regardless.  Have to clear everything they give you.  Cue 12 hour shifts in winter.  For the same money.

 

 

So naw.  A no strings pay rise please.

What a bunch of c***s. More and more companies want to do this sort of shit. It's simply naked greed. These pieces of shit just want to hoard all profits and are demanding more and more profits from workers whilst demaning those who make them the profits do more of it and receive less and less.

Hope you all tell them to get themselves so far to f**k.

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Just now, oaksoft said:

No because like everyone else, you're incapable of thinking more than 2 millimetres ahead of what's right in front of you.

9% pay rises means inflation will rise faster, taking interest rates with it.

Some of us have actually lived through this same scenario before.

You need to put down your 1st year university politics books and start considering how everything is inter-linked in the real world.

And I lived through the 60s, 70s and 80s too.

I never went to University. 

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17 minutes ago, virginton said:

There are plenty of ways to reduce fuel usage and make fewer journeys in total (see the number of fat slobs who don't walk the length of themselves) and also ways to reduce domestic consumption as well. That's part of how a high price response should work. 

I'm really not concerned if a two car household can no longer 'afford' to run their sprogs to school in some crap SUV.

Which is why those at the bottom of the income scale need to have it uplifted by inflation rates, absolutely. 

The UK is rammed with people in entirely middle-class jobs and income brackets who seem to think that they're in the bottom deciles and are entitled to this special protection though. 

i dont disagree on the last bit. 

5 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

IMO people on £25k a year are not the priority right now. None of them should be in a situation where they are facing starvation or freezing.

We have millions in the UK earning significantly under that who could well be facing those choices and the government should be helping keep them on an even keel and them alone.

Are you speaking for experience? £25k is not a huge salary and certainly below the UK average. The increase in fuel and energy will be causing people at that level some grief i would think. This is just me surmising as i cant say what they are going through because, fortunately, i am not in that position. 

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How many unions have came out and explicitly demanded an RPI wage rise?

Have any of them put a number on it following rejection of an offer?

Somewhat disingenuous, the number of arguments in here about people don't deserve 9% specifically, when no one actually knows what might be accepted by the workers in question...

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20 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

IMO people on £25k a year are not the priority right now. None of them should be in a situation where they are facing starvation or freezing.

We have millions in the UK earning significantly under that who could well be facing those choices and the government should be helping keep them on an even keel and them alone.

You've clearly lost touch with reality if you believe that to be the case. 

A single person with a modest mortgage would struggle on that salary under the current inflationary pressures.

And God help anyone trying to run a home and bring up a couple of kids.

Edited by Barney Rubble
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3 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

You've clearly lost touch with reality if you believe that to be the case. 

A single person with a modest mortgage would struggle on that salary under the current inflationary pressures.

And God help anyone trying to run a home and bring up a couple of kids.

If you're running a home with a couple of kids, you can in all likelihood double that salary though. 

And what do you define as a 'modest mortgage'? 

Edited by vikingTON
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1 minute ago, virginton said:

If you're running a home with a couple of kids, you can in all likelihood double that salary though. 

And what do you define as a 'modest mortgage'? 

I wouldn't be so sure about your first sentence VT.

A modest mortgage on a 25k salary would be 60k maximum.

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16 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

No because like everyone else, you're incapable of thinking more than 2 millimetres ahead of what's right in front of you.

9% pay rises means inflation will rise faster, taking interest rates with it.

Some of us have actually lived through this same scenario before.

You need to put down your 1st year university politics books and start considering how everything is inter-linked in the real world.

The seventies is instructive in another way.

We need to look after growth too. Stagflation is worse than inflation alone and can cause inflation to become embedded.

The seventies is only one case and it doesn’t follow that any wage rises will be inflationary. We have far less people working for state backed primary and secondary industries now so the impact of public sector pay on prices will be lower. NHS services for example aren’t paid for on a market and don’t affect price levels like coal and steel workers would have.

That’s not to say that we should be cavalier about the possibility of a spiral. But it’s not inevitable and it’s not the only bad outcome.

 

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3 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

I wouldn't be so sure about your first sentence VT.

Well there are going to be capable two wage-earners either way, in the vast majority of such households. Other than unpaid leave, there's no reason to expect that Person B couldn't go out and earn at a full-time median salary as well. 

Single parent families are unlikely to get even close to that £25k benchmark and so should absolutely be prioritised for support (as well as other households with dependents). 

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4 minutes ago, virginton said:

Well there are going to be capable two wage-earners either way, in the vast majority of such households. Other than unpaid leave, there's no reason to expect that Person B couldn't go out and earn at a full-time median salary as well. 

Single parent families are unlikely to get even close to that £25k benchmark and so should absolutely be prioritised for support (as well as other households with dependents). 

Your premise assumes that the kids are at school though.

How do you factor in those families with a couple of infants below school age? 

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