The years of discontent, 2022/23

[Todd_is_God]

1 minute ago, invergowrie arab said:

Only an idiot thinks council tax touches the side of local authority budgets.

There is the entirety of public spending to look at.

There is no wriggle room in SG public spending. They had to take the £250m for their Xmas Covid nonsense from the health budget, for example - where are they finding £600m?

Taxes will need increasing and/or services will need cutting. That's the reality.

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

I don't have a side here. Workers can use whatever tools they have at their disposal to try to get what they deem a fair deal.

What I also understand, however, is that additional expenditure needs to come from somewhere. When it's a private company, that means prices will increase. When it's a public service company, then either taxes need to be increased or services elsewhere need to be cut.

The Venn diagram of those vocally supporting workers in getting a better deal, but will then complain down the road about the knock on effects when it impacts them will be an almost perfect circle.

Well I was the one that brought it up and I categorically won't be complaining, even supposing the councils raise their rates and directly blame the workers. Falkirk Council have applied the maximum allowed rise every year since the freeze was lifted anyway.....

In the current political landscape of the UK, I will applaud everyone and anyone who is brave enough to take a stand against a backdrop of a vicious tory party and an endless stream of compliant media behind them. 

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

 

Told you 

I never suggested it.  It will be the predictable response to where should the money come from though.  It also ignores the fact the additional money is coming from SG, not the councils.

Maybe you should calm down to a frenzy before jumping in with both feet and making yourself look a bit silly.

[Left Back]

7 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Everything you said prior to this is correct. The quoted bit is pish though.

People who tend to support decent wages for public sector works are almost exclusively never the people who moan about taxation.

Bullshit.  If this were the case you’d never hear anyone saying the wealthy should be taxed more, or the tax dodge loopholes should be closed etc.  it’s the usual pie in the sky solution to all public spending questions. 

[Todd_is_God]

15 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

In the current political landscape of the UK, I will applaud everyone and anyone who is brave enough to take a stand against a backdrop of a vicious tory party and an endless stream of compliant media behind them. 

This has nothing to do with UK or Tory politics, though.

It's good that you won't have any complaints about increased rates and reduced services, however. Providing you stick to that when the impact comes then you are more than entitled to shout your support as loud as you like!

By not complaining at all, you would also not actually be present on said Venn diagram anyway...

Edited September 2, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Bairnardo]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

This has nothing to do with UK or Tory politics, though.

It's good that you won't have any complaints about increased rates and reduced services, however. Providing you stick to that when the impact comes then you are more than entitled to shout your support as loud as you like!

By not complaining at all, you would also not actually be present on said Venn diagram anyway...

It does have a lot to do with it though. Its hard to go on strike. It's hard to get it to ballot, it's hard to get the yes vote for legal action. All of that is because of the tories. It's hard to actually take the decision to do it against a stream of folk telling you to shut up and eat your cereal. Trad Unionism is massively under attack in this country. We have heard as much from wretches like Truss, Sunak and Johnson in recent weeks. 

This is why I support these people. They are taking the decision and making the sacrifice to work towards, and legally withdraw their labour to try and get a better deal from their employer at a time of utterly ludicrous inflation. In many cases, doing so under the threat of despicable shite like fire and rehire. In the meantime, those who would revoke the right to withdraw Labour are telling them to cancel Netflix or buy a new fucking kettle to save a tenner a year.

I am more than happy to take you at your word that you have no side here, but theres a heavy "tell me you don't like trade unions......" energy coming across. 

[Todd_is_God]

11 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

I am more than happy to take you at your word that you have no side here, but theres a heavy "tell me you don't like trade unions......" energy coming across. 

Genuinely not. I am just foreseeing the same people championing the binmen today, complaining when their uplifts are reduced to 4 weekly and local services like libraries and golf courses are closed to make ends meet (that they actually use neither is usually irrelevant).

This will be done whilst complaining if income tax is increased, and also complaining that they don't know why they pay their council tax as the services are shite, all without any sense of awareness as to why that might be.

It was the same with the NHS and National Insurance.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Left Back]

8 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

It does have a lot to do with it though. Its hard to go on strike. It's hard to get it to ballot, it's hard to get the yes vote for legal action. All of that is because of the tories. It's hard to actually take the decision to do it against a stream of folk telling you to shut up and eat your cereal. Trad Unionism is massively under attack in this country. We have heard as much from wretches like Truss, Sunak and Johnson in recent weeks. 

This is why I support these people. They are taking the decision and making the sacrifice to work towards, and legally withdraw their labour to try and get a better deal from their employer at a time of utterly ludicrous inflation. In many cases, doing so under the threat of despicable shite like fire and rehire. In the meantime, those who would revoke the right to withdraw Labour are telling them to cancel Netflix or buy a new fucking kettle to save a tenner a year.

I am more than happy to take you at your word that you have no side here, but theres a heavy "tell me you don't like trade unions......" energy coming across. 

How would you propose SG fund this?  It likely won’t be the last money they have to find as I think teachers are still up for striking?

 What is the practical answer?

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

Genuinely not. I am just foreseeing the same people championing the binmen today, complaining when their uplifts are reduced to 4 weekly and local services like libraries and golf courses are closed to make ends meet.

This will be done whilst complaining if income tax is increased, and also complaining that they don't know why they pay their council tax as the services are shite, all without any sense of awareness as to why that might be.

It was the same with the NHS and National Insurance.

 

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

How would you propose SG fund this?  It likely won’t be the last money they have to find as I think teachers are still up for striking?

 What is the practical answer?

Its not the job of the striking workers to accept a shite pay deal because 'how will the SG fund this?"

I dont really keep tabs on who champions which cause then complains afterwards. It sort of begins and ends for me that as a trade unionist I consider these people brave and I am glad they are less worse off (not better off) for having exercised their rights and stood together. 

Unfortunately, I can't be held responsible for explaining the double standards of unspecified others. It's basically just an offshoot of NIMBYism though isn't it. I'm not prepared to tell people they should take 2.5% when inflation is at 12% because it might have a knock on effect on me. That's a brand of selfishness I can never subscribe to. 

[Todd_is_God]

3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Its not the job of the striking workers to accept a shite pay deal because 'how will the SG fund this?"

No-one is suggesting it is.

[invergowrie arab]

 

50 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

There is no wriggle room in SG public spending. They had to take the £250m for their Xmas Covid nonsense from the health budget, for example - where are they finding £600m?

Taxes will need increasing and/or services will need cutting. That's the reality.

Indeed but its wider than council tax 

[Bairnardo]

No-one is suggesting it is.

So the gripe is with people offering their solidarity, rather than with the actions of the workers themselves?

There seems to be an expectation that they (or those supporting them) should take that under consideration.

Anyway, there are two sides to a negotiation. If Scotgov have committed in such a way that leaves them unable to provide the public with adequate services, blame them. Punish them at the ballot box.

[Todd_is_God]

7 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

I'm not prepared to tell people they should take 2.5% when inflation is at 12% because it might have a knock on effect on me. 

Again, that isn't what I'm saying.

But if you are not a binman, and you champion those who are getting a 10% raise (as is your right), then you should do so being fully aware that if they then receive that raise, then either your taxes will go up and / or the services you receive will be reduced.

Complaining when that then happens is the mark of a moron. You won't, but plenty will.

I'm not arguing with you or disagreeing with the points you make, but you're arguing against something I wasn't saying.

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

There seems to be an expectation that... those supporting them should take that under consideration.

Of course they should. Actions have reactions / consequences. Covid restrictions and our involvement in war in Ukraine are perfect recent examples of this.

[Bairnardo]

Again, that isn't what I'm saying.
But if you are not a binman, and you champion those who are getting a 10% raise (as is your right), then you should do so being fully aware that if they then receive that raise, then either your taxes will go up and / or the services you receive will be reduced.
Complaining when that then happens is the mark of a moron. You won't, but plenty will.
I'm not arguing with you or disagreeing with the points you make, but you're arguing against something I wasn't saying.

Yeah fair enough, you won't catch me disagreeing that the "Great British Public" is utterly riddled with morons who will do exactly as you say.

Those people just add more fuel to the fires trade unions are constantly fighting though. The ones that suddenly start worrying about "hard working Brits" when they can't get a train one day.

[BFTD]

If people have to keep on asking what you're actually saying, you're clearly doing a bad job of explaining it.

[Left Back]

12 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

 

Its not the job of the striking workers to accept a shite pay deal because 'how will the SG fund this?"

I dont really keep tabs on who champions which cause then complains afterwards. It sort of begins and ends for me that as a trade unionist I consider these people brave and I am glad they are less worse off (not better off) for having exercised their rights and stood together. 

Unfortunately, I can't be held responsible for explaining the double standards of unspecified others. It's basically just an offshoot of NIMBYism though isn't it. I'm not prepared to tell people they should take 2.5% when inflation is at 12% because it might have a knock on effect on me. That's a brand of selfishness I can never subscribe to. 

That’s not the question I asked.

You’re an advocate of this.  How are you proposing it’s paid for?  SG have said there will be difficult decisions to fund this.  What decisions would you take?  Cut services or raise taxes?  Which services are worthy of cutting?  Which taxes should be raised?

[Todd_is_God]

Just now, BFTD said:

If people have to keep on asking what you're actually saying, you're clearly doing a bad job of explaining it.

What?

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

That’s not the question I asked.

You’re an advocate of this.  How are you proposing it’s paid for?  SG have said there will be difficult decisions to fund this.  What decisions would you take?  Cut services or raise taxes?  Which services are worthy of cutting?  Which taxes should be raised?

That's absolutely none of my business, and we're I one of the employees, or their shop steward, I would still be advocating industrial action for a better pay deal if what was offered fell short of what was acceptable. 

I will do so when my works pay negotiations start and I won't gove a single f**k what pot they have to dip to get it. My relationship to my employer is money for time/skills. If I don't feel the balance is right il pull what levers I have. 

I have to wonder, which workers are you OK with seeking a better pay rise? Only private sector? 

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

What?

You're arguing against something that I wasn't saying.