South Region Challenge Cup 2022-23

[Ginaro]

On 26/06/2022 at 12:58, theesel1994 said:

Something that already happens for all the West Cups and SJFA Cup.

Don't think it's the same as although the money is shared in the Junior Cup, the home club will only get some income once the away team has their travel guarantee paid from the gate receipts. Presumably the SCC committee is still paying for the away team's travel over 80 miles, separate to the shared gates?

[Burnieman]

Looks like a national non-league cup is dead in the water for now.  HL, LL, SoS and NCL not interested, and the feeling amongst EoS clubs is apathy with the South Challenge Cup fulfilling most clubs desire for a multi-regional competition outside the Scottish Cup.

[Shanner]

48 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Looks like a national non-league cup is dead in the water for now.  HL, LL, SoS and NCL not interested, and the feeling amongst EoS clubs is apathy with the South Challenge Cup fulfilling most clubs desire for a multi-regional competition outside the Scottish Cup.

Sad to see that but I suppose it's a sign of the times. All about the league and promotion now for most clubs at the top level of the non league set up.

[LongTimeLurker]

Those that want a national cup from tier 6 down can still proceed in the absence of those that don't. The SoS and NCL not being on board isn't exactly a huge loss in terms of who is likely to get through to the later rounds. It only takes the EoS to get over the junior vs senior tribalism to put humpty dumpty back together again on having similar to what the SJC traditionally provided.

[Burnieman]

On 19/07/2022 at 14:48, LongTimeLurker said:

Those that want a national cup from tier 6 down can still proceed in the absence of those that don't. The SoS and NCL not being on board isn't exactly a huge loss in terms of who is likely to get through to the later rounds. It only takes the EoS to get over the junior vs senior tribalism to put humpty dumpty back together again on having similar to what the SJC traditionally provided.

There you go again, making things up.

The EoS clubs voted to allow the board to go ahead and discuss a new national non-league cup competition.  It is abundantly clear however that there isn't going to be one without the HL and LL being involved.  The SCC has LL, WoS, EoS and SoS all involved, why would they replace that with a new competition only involving WoS, Midland and North Juniors?

It has hee haw to do with tribalism - that's the voices in your head again - and all to do with common sense.

[LongTimeLurker]

20 hours ago, Burnieman said:

...The SCC has LL, WoS, EoS and SoS all involved, why would they replace that with a new competition only involving WoS, Midland and North Juniors? 

Ignoring this guy's usual immature antics it's worth noting that the SCC final last season only attracted 800 despite being Auchinleck Talbot vs Bonnyrigg Rose and that the LL is still not opening up pro/rel as they should. Telling the LL to ram it where the SCC is concerned and doing something without them for tier 6 and below only would have been a strong statement that isn't going to be tolerated.

[Shanner]

21 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ignoring this guy's usual immature antics it's worth noting that the SCC final last season only attracted 800 despite being Auchinleck Talbot vs Bonnyrigg Rose and that the LL is still not opening up pro/rel as they should. Telling the LL to ram it where the SCC is concerned and doing something without them for tier 6 and below only would have been a strong statement that isn't going to be tolerated.

would that be significantly stronger and more attractive than the current Scottish Junior Cup?

Not in the WOS anyway. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Shanner

[Bestsinceslicebread]

On 21/07/2022 at 17:36, LongTimeLurker said:

Ignoring this guy's usual immature antics it's worth noting that the SCC final last season only attracted 800 despite being Auchinleck Talbot vs Bonnyrigg Rose and that the LL is still not opening up pro/rel as they should. Telling the LL to ram it where the SCC is concerned and doing something without them for tier 6 and below only would have been a strong statement that isn't going to be tolerated.

Not sure what the script with this love  hate relationship you both have.

Right now, some are saying the SJC is on the decline and some are saying the SJC is on the rise. a few seem to think the SJC will become the nations cup, but personally i don't think it will for a few reasons.  There are things i agree with what you state at times LongTimeLurker and many things I disagree with. Your view of a national non league trophy run by the Scottish Juniors to me is a total none starter. You try to back it up with comments like 'only attracted 800' which is just stupid. You know the cup is becoming bigger and the reputation will rise and only been going since 2006

I can only go for facts and at this moment in time, The SJC is attracting 108, (2 down from last season) while the SCC which is ONLY for teams in the southerside of Scotland is attracting, well last season was 161 teams and there's a few new teams joined this season in the WOSFL and a full league that's joined in the EOSFL so i expect the SCC is over 170 teams.  The quality on show is far superior in the SCC so I can see how the appetites is high. The SCC didn't have a lot of interest years ago but now most of the teams have joined and also i think away clubs will receive gate money, (is this correct ?) is becoming more popular and now with more teams receiving SFA license status, i can see more pulling out of the SJC next season due to concentrating on the SFA Scottish Cup.  In this current situation I can either be right or wrong but I think the SCC will continue to stay, grow and become more popular and in the future this might have effect on a national non league but can see a lot of teams who have this license not bothering with the national trophy.  I defiantly cannot see a non league national trophy begin arrange that is run by the SJFA or in conjunction with the Scottish Junior cup

Edited July 23, 2022 by Bestsinceslicebread

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ignoring this guy's usual immature antics it's worth noting that the SCC final last season only attracted 800 despite being Auchinleck Talbot vs Bonnyrigg Rose and that the LL is still not opening up pro/rel as they should. Telling the LL to ram it where the SCC is concerned and doing something without them for tier 6 and below only would have been a strong statement that isn't going to be tolerated.

You're the one that started the usual immature antics by bringing up the Junior v. Senior tribalism.

There's no point in a new national non-league Cup because the SoS & LL would still continue with the SCC and everyone else would go "That already exists its the Junior Scottish Cup".

There are clubs that don't want to pay the SJFA membership fees, risk the actual cost of travel for themselves or their opponents travel guarantee to be knocked out after 1-2 games.

While it's all well and good focusing on a showpiece final. With 240+ clubs in the pyramid, 180 are knocked out after 1-2 games in a truly inclusive non-league Scottish Cup. The SCC largely replicates that experience now there's a split gate and regionalisation that further reduces costs.

[Burnieman]

46 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ignoring this guy's usual immature antics it's worth noting that the SCC final last season only attracted 800 despite being Auchinleck Talbot vs Bonnyrigg Rose and that the LL is still not opening up pro/rel as they should. Telling the LL to ram it where the SCC is concerned and doing something without them for tier 6 and below only would have been a strong statement that isn't going to be tolerated.

"immature antics" from the guy who once again literally makes stuff up to suit his very weird and warped anti-EoS agenda. Who's immature?

Aye, clubs are really going to tell the LL to "ram it" and leave the SCC for a half-arsed replacement. That would be immature 

[Burnieman]

15 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Not sure what the script with this love  hate relationship you both have.

Trust me, there's no relationship, he's ignored.  However, he comes out with so much crap he sometimes needs to be corrected.

[FairWeatherFan]

One of the things mentioned in the SJFA proposal and their £80k a year prize money was the use of multiple sponsors to help cover that costs.

When you look at the fairly quick turnover from SoccerShopDirect/TradeRadiators (SCC) and Indigo/ClydeBuilt (SJC). As well as the ongoing Clarke Epos debacle. Tying fixed prize money commitments to sponsorships that can be fleeting at best. Isn't the best way to design a tournament. So I can see why there will be the struggle to get a change from the status quo. With the greater club focus on getting their SFA licence and the Scottish Cup experience that way.

[Burnieman]

15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

There are clubs that don't want to pay the SJFA membership fees, risk the actual cost of travel for themselves or their opponents travel guarantee to be knocked out after 1-2 games.

There's 7 EoS clubs left in the SJFA.  Two received byes, of the other five ties we have Rothie Rovers v Armadale Thistle and Longside v Stoneyburn.  Almost certainly loss making ties for all four clubs and unless the match guarantee has been bumped up, then the bus costs will be pretty bad. In the current climate it's now around £700 or more for a hire like that.

I'm guessing that's a big part of the reason why the NCL, HL, LL and SoS are not interested in a new cup (or the SJC), there's not enough money in it to shield clubs from these sort of costs. If Armadale and Stoneyburn prevail and end up with another north draw, it's going to cost them a lot of money.

At the moment, the SCC with the first two rounds regionalised and with LL and SoS involved, makes far more sense and already has more clubs in it than the Junior Cup had for many years. Nobody is going to tell anyone to ram it...

[Ginaro]

On 19/07/2022 at 14:48, LongTimeLurker said:

It only takes the EoS to get over the junior vs senior tribalism to put humpty dumpty back together again on having similar to what the SJC traditionally provided.

As you well know, EOS clubs have been able to enter the Junior Cup since last season. If the SJFA made their draw earlier (like the SCC), the league fixtures for those competing could probably be worked out so that no one is having to forfeit.

23 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

There's 7 EoS clubs left in the SJFA.  Two received byes, of the other five ties we have Rothie Rovers v Armadale Thistle and Longside v Stoneyburn.  Almost certainly loss making ties for all four clubs and unless the match guarantee has been bumped up, then the bus costs will be pretty bad. In the current climate it's now around £700 or more for a hire like that.

Islavale hosting Dalry as well - that's £370 the home club needs to find for the ref + guarantee (60+ fans needed to make money, unlikely), with Dalry getting £465 for their travel. Same for Irvine Vics hosting Fraserburgh. Maybe that £400 everyone is getting could go towards these types of clubs instead?

52 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Aye, clubs are really going to tell the LL to "ram it" and leave the SCC for a half-arsed replacement. That would be immature 

Think the suggestion would be to exclude the LL clubs from the SCC until they increase "ventilation" - it's about the only leverage tier 6 has.

[Arthurlie1981]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

There's 7 EoS clubs left in the SJFA.  Two received byes, of the other five ties we have Rothie Rovers v Armadale Thistle and Longside v Stoneyburn.  Almost certainly loss making ties for all four clubs and unless the match guarantee has been bumped up, then the bus costs will be pretty bad. In the current climate it's now around £700 or more for a hire like that.

I'm guessing that's a big part of the reason why the NCL, HL, LL and SoS are not interested in a new cup (or the SJC), there's not enough money in it to shield clubs from these sort of costs. If Armadale and Stoneyburn prevail and end up with another north draw, it's going to cost them a lot of money.

At the moment, the SCC with the first two rounds regionalised and with LL and SoS involved, makes far more sense and already has more clubs in it than the Junior Cup had for many years. Nobody is going to tell anyone to ram it...

Some excellent point there. I think clubs need to think carefully about travel just now. Bus prices have gone up significantly for school transport to where some council need more money for it so I can only imagine what it will be for clubs. From that point alone it is not worth it for clubs. 

I think the SCC needs to improve and increase it's reach to the fans which will encourage bigger attendances but that will come imo.

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Think the suggestion would be to exclude the LL clubs from the SCC until they increase "ventilation" - it's about the only leverage tier 6 has.

Think it falls into the same situation as the Playoff rules, the LL are bound into the laws. The South likely siding with them as well.

 

 

[Burnieman]

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Islavale hosting Dalry as well - that's £370 the home club needs to find for the ref + guarantee (60+ fans needed to make money, unlikely), with Dalry getting £465 for their travel. Same for Irvine Vics hosting Fraserburgh. Maybe that £400 everyone is getting could go towards these types of clubs instead?

£465 won't get Dalry a bus to Keith, you're looking at £700-£800 I would expect. 430 mile round journey and all day hire.

For Islavale to break even, and assuming they charge £5 / £2 entry, that's 74 full paying adults, but in reality probably means at least 120 through the gate needed when you factor in concessions. They'll likely make a loss, as will Dalry unless they get someone to sponsor the bus / paying fans on it etc.

[Burnieman]

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Think the suggestion would be to exclude the LL clubs from the SCC until they increase "ventilation" - it's about the only leverage tier 6 has.

As FWF says, it's run between the four leagues, I doubt there's any sort of mechanism to chuck out one of the leagues in the unlikely event anyone wanted to do it.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Burnieman

[GNU_Linux]

Greenock 0-3 Thorn Athletic

Greenock finished with 9 men

[Killiepiyo]

Other than the Junior Cup and the Scottish Cup, do any other cups pay anything out with the home gate?