Striker Shortage

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, Day of the Lords said:

There's nothing at all obvious at all about. For one thing, any emerging Brazilian talent in 94 would almost certainly have gone to Serie A. There's no way Richarlison playing in that league back then would be anywhere near the number of career goals he's scored so far. His achievements in European football aren't much better than any of the players you mentioned - basically a few goals for a shite Watford side, and a 1 in 3 ratio (or thereabouts) in a mostly shite Everton side. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the players you mentioned have all won more trophies than Richarlison. 

So, whilst I'm not saying Richarlison definitely wouldn't have got into a squad, dismissing the above players as total nobodies who'd have been instantly binned to accommodate him is utter nonsense. 

He won't be back to discuss it, hes unable to simply admit he gets something wrong. So will just avoid the thread for a few days and pretend it didn't happen

[craigkillie]

On 25/06/2022 at 20:58, BingMcCrosby said:

Edilson played 1 season in Europe, scoring 17 goals in 32 games. He has a career total of 176 goals in 412 games.

Viola played 1 season in Europe and scored 10 goals in 30 games.

Let's be honest neither of us were at any of those games. So we don't have any earthly clue how they played. But hardly stats of guys failing miserably.

Even tho the stats suggest im correct, they actually mean very little. If your comparing players accross generations you have to have actually seen the players play yourself. As the standards of those leagues both in South America and Europe would have changed so dramatically.

3rd time, have you actually seen any of those players you mentioned play?

Just be honest, you picked 3 names of players who you didn't know anything about. And that you hadn't seen play and just said Richarlison was better than them.

You don't need to have watched old players on a regular basis to be able to form a rough judgement on their abilities. If someone said "actually, Kenny Miller was better than Kenny Dalglish", it wouldn't matter that I hadn't actually ever seen Kenny Dalglish play, I'd still know that was rubbish. If you read enough about old football then you start to get a rough vibe for how things were back then.

The Brazilian league in that era was a fair bit stronger than it was now, but by the 90s the best players were already coming to play in Europe, though the mid-tier guys were still hanging around domestically in larger numbers than they do now.

I'd expect most folk would know who Muller was given that he scored the goal that knocked Scotland out of the 1990 World Cup. However that team was distinctly unimpressive on the whole, and by the time 1994 came around he was starting to be phased out a bit and was just about to move to Japan to play. Again, the Japanese league was a bit better back then, probably sort of equivalent to the MLS now in terms of the weird mix of players in it.

Viola, I only knew of because the 1994 World Cup was the first one I watched and therefore I remembered the names without knowing much about them. However, again he had a very average career, kicking about the Brazilian league for years but only winning it once. He had the spell in Spain that you mentioned, but was back in Brazil with in a year, and then was back in Turkey a bit later.

I remember the guys from 2002 better though. That wasn't a fantastic team on the whole, but was carried by the excellent full-backs and front three, plus Gilberto Silva holding it together in midfield. Edilson's only season in Europe was in Portugal, where he only scored 9 goals for Benfica in the league, making him something like the 6th top scoring Brazilian in the division that season. He did score 17 goals in all competitions, but 4 of those came in a 12-0 win over a lower league side in the cup. Luizao had two failed spells in Europe, with Deportivo and Hertha.

 

 

22 hours ago, Day of the Lords said:

There's nothing at all obvious at all about. For one thing, any emerging Brazilian talent in 94 would almost certainly have gone to Serie A. There's no way Richarlison playing in that league back then would be anywhere near the number of career goals he's scored so far. His achievements in European football aren't much better than any of the players you mentioned - basically a few goals for a shite Watford side, and a 1 in 3 ratio (or thereabouts) in a mostly shite Everton side. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the players you mentioned have all won more trophies than Richarlison. 

So, whilst I'm not saying Richarlison definitely wouldn't have got into a squad, dismissing the above players as total nobodies who'd have been instantly binned to accommodate him is utter nonsense. 

And yet only one of those guys that I mentioned ever played in (the Italian) Serie A, and was long gone from it by the time the 1994 World Cup came around.

Judging players by the number of trophies they won without any further context is totally pointless, especially when they played in Brazil, where clubs can end up playing in 5 or 6 competitions in a season. Scott Brown won more trophies than Steven Gerrard, but I think I know which one I'd rather have had in my team. Look at some of cups that these guys actually won - the Copa Sul-Minas, the UAE President's Cup, the Minas Gerais State league etc. Obviously there were some meaningful ones in there like the Copa Libertadores too, but I'm sure Richarlison could have won that if he'd stuck around in Brazil too.

Edited June 27, 2022 by craigkillie

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, craigkillie said:

You don't need to have watched old players on a regular basis to be able to form a rough judgement on their abilities. If someone said "actually, Kenny Miller was better than Kenny Dalglish", it wouldn't matter that I hadn't actually ever seen Kenny Dalglish play, I'd still know that was rubbish. If you read enough about old football then you start to get a rough vibe for how things were back then.

The Brazilian league in that era was a fair bit stronger than it was now, but by the 90s the best players were already coming to play in Europe, though the mid-tier guys were still hanging around domestically in larger numbers than they do now.

I'd expect most folk would know who Muller was given that he scored the goal that knocked Scotland out of the 1990 World Cup. However that team was distinctly unimpressive on the whole, and by the time 1994 came around he was starting to be phased out a bit and was just about to move to Japan to play. Again, the Japanese league was a bit better back then, probably sort of equivalent to the MLS now in terms of the weird mix of players in it.

Viola, I only knew of because the 1994 World Cup was the first one I watched and therefore I remembered the names without knowing much about them. However, again he had a very average career, kicking about the Brazilian league for years but only winning it once. He had the spell in Spain that you mentioned, but was back in Brazil with in a year, and then was back in Turkey a bit later.

I remember the guys from 2002 better though. That wasn't a fantastic team on the whole, but was carried by the excellent full-backs and front three, plus Gilberto Silva holding it together in midfield. Edilson's only season in Europe was in Portugal, where he only scored 9 goals for Benfica in the league, making him something like the 6th top scoring Brazilian in the division that season. He did score 17 goals in all competitions, but 4 of those came in a 12-0 win over a lower league side in the cup. Luizao had two failed spells in Europe, with Deportivo and Hertha.

 

 

 

And yet only one of those guys that I mentioned ever played in (the Italian) Serie A, and was long gone from it by the time the 1994 World Cup came around.

Judging players by the number of trophies they won without any further context is totally pointless, especially when they played in Brazil, where clubs can end up playing in 5 or 6 competitions in a season. Scott Brown won more trophies than Steven Gerrard, but I think I know which one I'd rather have had in my team. Look at some of cups that these guys actually won - the Copa Sul-Minas, the UAE President's Cup, the Minas Gerais State league etc. Obviously there were some meaningful ones in there like the Copa Libertadores too, but I'm sure Richarlison could have won that if he'd stuck around in Brazil too.

 

The difference between Kenny Dalglish and Kenny Miller? Do you think that's a reasonable comparison, the best Scottish player ever vs Kenny Miller. Thats ridiculous.

Your talking about guys you've never seen play, and just quoting the same information thats available online to try and show you have knowledge of the players. (Took you a while to look it up) The comparison is much more subtle and you would need to have watched the players to even begin to compare.

Without doing so your opinion is worthless. Like giving your opinion on a book you haven't read or a film you haven't seen. Trying to keep justifying it is bizarre but carry on.

[craigkillie]

8 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

The difference between Kenny Dalglish and Kenny Miller? Do you think that's a reasonable comparison, the best Scottish player ever vs Kenny Miller. Thats ridiculous.

How can you possibly say Kenny Dalglish is the best Scottish player ever? By your own argument, even if you saw him play, you didn't see the guys in the 1920s so it's impossible to comment on this at all.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, craigkillie said:

How can you possibly say Kenny Dalglish is the best Scottish player ever? By your own argument, even if you saw him play, you didn't see the guys in the 1920s so it's impossible to comment on this at all.

Ha ha, you think that's the same

[Satoshi]

What is your actual point though? That Richarlison is rubbish and wouldn't get in previous brazil squads?

But a contrary view isn't valid because that person hasn't seen the players play live?

Wouldn't that also apply to you though making the original statement false by your own logic?

Richarlison is decent but not brilliant, Brazil have certainly had worse forwards than him in plenty of previous squads. Fred started for them in 2014.

People have rose tinted view of the past (you tend to default to the best version of that player rather than the messy inconsistent reality). Parmas amazing squad for the 90s is a common meme but most of those players peaked elsewhere.

[Bing.McCrosby]

2 hours ago, Satoshi said:

What is your actual point though? That Richarlison is rubbish and wouldn't get in previous brazil squads?

But a contrary view isn't valid because that person hasn't seen the players play live?

Wouldn't that also apply to you though making the original statement false by your own logic?

Richarlison is decent but not brilliant, Brazil have certainly had worse forwards than him in plenty of previous squads. Fred started for them in 2014.

People have rose tinted view of the past (you tend to default to the best version of that player rather than the messy inconsistent reality). Parmas amazing squad for the 90s is a common meme but most of those players peaked elsewhere.

No, I just don't know I've not seen enough of those players mentioned Edilson, Luizao, Muller and Viola. To give an honest comparison.

My point is neither has craig, he was just trying to be a smart arse as usual. And has come up well short.

Although you seem to be impressed with him.

[Satoshi]

1 minute ago, BingMcCrosby said:

No, I just don't know I've not seen enough of those players mentioned Edilson, Luizao, Muller and Viola. To give an honest comparison.

My point is neither has craig, he was just trying to be a smart arse as usual. And has come up well short.

Although you seem to be impressed with him.

So what is your point exactly? You don't rate Richarlison and don't know much about the players mentioned above? Is that it?

He puts research into what he posts and does so in a fairly neutral way, I don't perceive it as being a smart arse at all. There's a reason he's the resident stato. 

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Satoshi said:

So what is your point exactly? You don't rate Richarlison and don't know much about the players mentioned above? Is that it?

He puts research into what he posts and does so in a fairly neutral way, I don't perceive it as being a smart arse at all. There's a reason he's the resident stato. 

 

 

Just now, BingMcCrosby said:

No, I just don't know I've not seen enough of those players mentioned Edilson, Luizao, Muller and Viola. To give an honest comparison.

My point is neither has craig, he was just trying to be a smart arse as usual. And has come up well short.

Although you seem to be impressed with him.

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 minute ago, Satoshi said:

So what is your point exactly? You don't rate Richarlison and don't know much about the players mentioned above? Is that it?

He puts research into what he posts and does so in a fairly neutral way, I don't perceive it as being a smart arse at all. There's a reason he's the resident stato. 

 

Same question twice, same answer twice.

I can only apologise you don't appreciate this point as much as the wonderfully well researched post about Richarlison being better than players someone's never seen. But each to their own.

[Binos]

£60m apparently 

For being average 

Although it is Conte who's decided to splash cash on him, which making me doubt myself,  as Conte certainly not average manager 

[Ewan8472]

On 26/06/2022 at 17:04, BingMcCrosby said:

The difference between Kenny Dalglish and Kenny Miller? Do you think that's a reasonable comparison, the best Scottish player ever vs Kenny Miller. Thats ridiculous.

Your talking about guys you've never seen play, and just quoting the same information thats available online to try and show you have knowledge of the players. (Took you a while to look it up) The comparison is much more subtle and you would need to have watched the players to even begin to compare.

Without doing so your opinion is worthless. Like giving your opinion on a book you haven't read or a film you haven't seen. Trying to keep justifying it is bizarre but carry on.

Denis Law was was better than either Kennys

[velo army]

15 hours ago, Ewan8472 said:

Denis Law was was better than either Kennys

Apologies for taking this thread away from it's original intention, which was to discuss whether a Brazilian playing in England would have made it into semi-recent Brazil squads, but I've always enjoyed the fact that, in answer to the question "who is the greatest ever Scottish player?" Kenny Dalgleish says it's Denis Law and Denis Law says it's Kenny Dalgleish. 

[SuperSaints1877]

12 minutes ago, velo army said:

Apologies for taking this thread away from it's original intention, which was to discuss whether a Brazilian playing in England would have made it into semi-recent Brazil squads, but I've always enjoyed the fact that, in answer to the question "who is the greatest ever Scottish player?" Kenny Dalgleish says it's Denis Law and Denis Law says it's Kenny Dalgleish. 

Dalglish. That’s the correct spelling.

Scotland's most successful player given the major domestic honours he won both sides of the border as well as in Europe. 

Denis is right! Kenny is being humble.

[Bing.McCrosby]

The correct answer may well be Andy Ritchie

[Gordopolis]

Quite sad to hear Leigh Griffiths on Sportsound today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62020366

The language is painfully contradictory in places. Sounds like he's mentally finished, but is being compelled by his agent to shoot for an Indian summer.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, Gordopolis said:

Quite sad to hear Leigh Griffiths on Sportsound today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62020366

The language is painfully contradictory in places. Sounds like he's mentally finished, but is being compelled by his agent to shoot for an Indian summer.

Yet another example of a quality Scottish player going off the rails when they should've been at their peak. These stories are depressing as f**k, and hopefully this one doesn't end with tabloid hacks revelling in another bankruptcy/council housing story.

Also, and I'm well aware this is deeply petty and irrelevant, but Leigh did not get a fifth place finish in League One last season. If he'd been paying attention, he'd have noticed that another team (I forget which) finished in fifth place in League One last season, and it was not the team he was on loan to. The team he was playing for finished in sixth place, below the team in fifth for the fourth season in a row. Thank you.

[Bing.McCrosby]

7 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Quite sad to hear Leigh Griffiths on Sportsound today.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62020366

The language is painfully contradictory in places. Sounds like he's mentally finished, but is being compelled by his agent to shoot for an Indian summer.

If you look at everything that's went on with Leigh Griffiths and everything that he's said. He's never once blamed himself for anything, it's always someone else. Thats his main problem, and unfortunately its way too late now.

Did the guy have the ability to be a top striker? For me yes, he had a bit of everything ability wise. And for a while he was certainly getting close to how good he could have been.

*edit

In that article he does say "I've made alot of mistakes in my time" so fair enough maybe he has realised he's the cause. Thats the first time I've heard him say anything like that.

Edited July 3, 2022 by BingMcCrosby

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

If you look at everything that's went on with Leigh Griffiths and everything that he's said. He's never once blamed himself for anything, it's always someone else. Thats his main problem, and unfortunately its way too late now.

Did the guy have the ability to be a top striker? For me yes, he had a bit of everything ability wise. And for a while he was certainly getting close to how good he could have been.

*edit

In that article he does say "I've made alot of mistakes in my time" so fair enough maybe he has realised he's the cause. Thats the first time I've heard him say anything like that.

There certainly seems to have been a lot of "people keep doubting me and think I'm done" over the past few years.

Yeah, that'll happen when you stop producing the goods and (seemingly) aren't putting in the effort to improve. Criminal if he hasn't been in therapy to get out of that kind of mindset.

[Bing.McCrosby]

4 hours ago, BFTD said:

There certainly seems to have been a lot of "people keep doubting me and think I'm done" over the past few years.

Yeah, that'll happen when you stop producing the goods and (seemingly) aren't putting in the effort to improve. Criminal if he hasn't been in therapy to get out of that kind of mindset.

Absolutely, if you look at his scoring record before Rodgers came to celtic it was brilliant. There had to have been a reason he just didn't fancy him, and it must have been behind the scenes. Attitude and application.

Rodgers has proven to be a top coach and pragmatic, it seems unlikely to me he would sideline a guy with those stats without good cause.

Its a shame (for scotland) he's another in the long line of strikers who could have been our best guy, and it just didn't happen.