Striker Shortage

[Captain Saintsible]

2 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Guardiola

 

2 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Indeed, its actually rumoured that Guardiola has based his football philosophy and tactics after that game. So blown away he was with the forward thinking tactics and silky football.

Guardiola’s “philosophy and tactics” amount to spending more money than anyone else and buying all the best players

[Gordopolis]

I’m comparing the goal scoring record of a Copa America winning striker valued at £50 million and has 14 goals in 36 appearances with Brazil with a striker whose goal scoring record you wouldn’t say is impressive 
 

Okay, I see. I think you're maybe missing my point.
Richarlison's pedigree is impressive, but it doesn't make his 9.6 goals any more special. That record at that level is - like Fletcher's - decent, but hardly "goal machine" territory, which was my point.

The only relevant comparison between the two in this context, I'd say, is that - as I already said of Fletcher - both of them are about more than just racking up goals. It was different, and stronger aspects of both player's games that saw them move to and do okay in the English top flight, whereas the likes of Boyd, Rhodes, Griffiths with their fantastic scoring records were just too one dimensional to get to that level.

It's also worth differentiating between Fletcher's era and Richarlison's (i.e. now). Only a handful of years in it but that period has seen the high goalscoring striker continue to become more of a rarity outside of the very top teams - so it slightly skews the comparison.

[Lurkst]

5 hours ago, Captain Saintsible said:

The 4-6-0 is a bit of a myth

Scotland lined up that night with Naismith and Mackie as wide forwards and Dorrans as a false 9

Its a formation that is widely used now and was used much of last season by Man City

Problem was we still lumped the ball up the park for Miller to chase when he wasn't actually playing. 

 

[Binos]

2 hours ago, Captain Saintsible said:

I’m comparing the goal scoring record of a Copa America winning striker valued at £50 million and has 14 goals in 36 appearances with Brazil with a striker whose goal scoring record you wouldn’t say is impressive 

 

Richarlison's bang average and wouldn't get on the coach of Brazil squads of the past

[SuperSaints1877]

1 minute ago, Binos said:

Richarlison's bang average and wouldn't get on the coach of Brazil squads of the past

Plus he is a cheating diving b*****d, but they have had a load of those over the years.

[craigkillie]

Richarlison's bang average and wouldn't get on the coach of Brazil squads of the past

Aye, I'm sure he'd be struggling to shift "Edilson" or "Luizao" from their 2002 World Cup winning squad, or "Muller" and "Viola" from the 1994 one.

[Binos]

6 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Aye, I'm sure he'd be struggling to shift "Edilson" or "Luizao" from their 2002 World Cup winning squad, or "Muller" and "Viola" from the 1994 one.

The current Brazil team are a shadow of their former self

[craigkillie]

They've finished as winners and runners-up in the last two editions or Copa America, finished top of the South American qualifying group, and will be one of the favourites for the World Cup.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

2 hours ago, Binos said:

The current Brazil team are a shadow of their former self

The problem with Brazil is that everyone compares them unfairly to the 1970 and 1982 squads. Over the last 50 years, those two teams have been outliers rather than the norm.

 

[Binos]

2 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

The problem with Brazil is that everyone compares them unfairly to the 1970 and 1982 squads. Over the last 50 years, those two teams have been outliers rather than the norm.

 

They won the world cup in 94

Got to the final 98

Won it 2002

[Bing.McCrosby]

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Aye, I'm sure he'd be struggling to shift "Edilson" or "Luizao" from their 2002 World Cup winning squad, or "Muller" and "Viola" from the 1994 one.

I do wonder if you just disagree for the point of disagreeing sometimes.

Have you much experience watching these players personally? Did you travel south America to do so?

Perhaps you can tell us a bit about their style of play?

All the players you mentioned have excellent goal scoring records in Brazil and some of them in Europe as well.

If they had been playing in this era they would all have been playing in Europe. And looking at their scoring records i would imagine successfully so.

Binos is correct, their squad by their standards is poor.

If you think this current brazil squad is a strong one then I would suggest you know very little about football. As has been proven quite alot recently.

 

[Satoshi]

Even a supposedly weak Brazil squad still has some of the best goalkeepers into the world and undoubtedly one of the bes centre backs (Marquinhos).

Attacking wise they are still decent if not quite at their best (although Vinicius and Neymar are still brilliant players), they have really struggled to produce creative central midfielders for a long time due to various very well explored reasons.

Every year their domestic game gets further behind.

But their current crop is in some ways better (goalkeeper and defence especially) than many previous world cup winning squads.

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Satoshi

[albagubrath]

1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

they have really struggled to produce creative central midfielders for a long time due to various very well explored reasons.

 

Why? Genuinely interested, I didn’t know this was/is a ‘known problem’ for them.

[craigkillie]

I do wonder if you just disagree for the point of disagreeing sometimes.
Have you much experience watching these players personally? Did you travel south America to do so?
Perhaps you can tell us a bit about their style of play?
All the players you mentioned have excellent goal scoring records in Brazil and some of them in Europe as well.
If they had been playing in this era they would all have been playing in Europe. And looking at their scoring records i would imagine successfully so.
Binos is correct, their squad by their standards is poor.
If you think this current brazil squad is a strong one then I would suggest you know very little about football. As has been proven quite alot recently.
 

The original suggestion was that Richarlison wouldn't be anywhere near previous Brazil squads, and I was pointing out that he very obviously would have been.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, craigkillie said:

The original suggestion was that Richarlison wouldn't be anywhere near previous Brazil squads, and I was pointing out that he very obviously would have been.

Indeed craig, the messages all make complete sense.

Again the players you mentioned that he is so obviously better than, how are you basing that assessment?

Have you seen much of them?

Or just guessing that the back up players for romario/bebeto and Rivaldo, Ronaldo, and Ronaldinho were a bunch of jokers?

[craigkillie]

They failed miserably in Europe with the exception of Muller, who did OK with a mid-table Serie A team. Richarlison has double figures in the English Premier League on three occasions now, he's clearly performing to a higher standard than any of those players managed. He's obviously not on the level of Romario or Ronaldo, but he's a very capable striker, certainly one that is capable of leading the line for a good international team.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

They failed miserably in Europe with the exception of Muller, who did OK with a mid-table Serie A team. Richarlison has double figures in the English Premier League on three occasions now, he's clearly performing to a higher standard than any of those players managed. He's obviously not on the level of Romario or Ronaldo, but he's a very capable striker, certainly one that is capable of leading the line for a good international team.

Edilson played 1 season in Europe, scoring 17 goals in 32 games. He has a career total of 176 goals in 412 games.

Viola played 1 season in Europe and scored 10 goals in 30 games.

Let's be honest neither of us were at any of those games. So we don't have any earthly clue how they played. But hardly stats of guys failing miserably.

Even tho the stats suggest im correct, they actually mean very little. If your comparing players accross generations you have to have actually seen the players play yourself. As the standards of those leagues both in South America and Europe would have changed so dramatically.

3rd time, have you actually seen any of those players you mentioned play?

Just be honest, you picked 3 names of players who you didn't know anything about. And that you hadn't seen play and just said Richarlison was better than them.

[Satoshi]

12 hours ago, albagubrath said:

Why? Genuinely interested, I didn’t know this was/is a ‘known problem’ for them.

It relates to the size of the pitches and the punishing schedule / travelling in brazil, the midfield is often bypassed and creative players moved forward. It's why they excel in producing defensive minded midfielders like Casemiro and Fabinho (and prior to that attacking minded midfielders). They have had no one like Pirlo or Xavi though and football has been going that way for the last 10-15 years so they are well behind.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

On 25/06/2022 at 08:27, Binos said:

They won the world cup in 94

Got to the final 98

Won it 2002

I was meaning style of play. The 94 team was not particularly easy on the eye and won a dreadful final. The 98/02 sides were good but mainly down to Rivaldo and Ronaldo. Every half decent Brazil side in the last 25 years has always been compared to the 70/82 sides which imo is pretty harsh as those were two exceptionally gifted squads, hence being outliers in the last 50 years or so. 

16 hours ago, craigkillie said:

The original suggestion was that Richarlison wouldn't be anywhere near previous Brazil squads, and I was pointing out that he very obviously would have been.

There's nothing at all obvious at all about. For one thing, any emerging Brazilian talent in 94 would almost certainly have gone to Serie A. There's no way Richarlison playing in that league back then would be anywhere near the number of career goals he's scored so far. His achievements in European football aren't much better than any of the players you mentioned - basically a few goals for a shite Watford side, and a 1 in 3 ratio (or thereabouts) in a mostly shite Everton side. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the players you mentioned have all won more trophies than Richarlison. 

So, whilst I'm not saying Richarlison definitely wouldn't have got into a squad, dismissing the above players as total nobodies who'd have been instantly binned to accommodate him is utter nonsense. 

[accies1874]

Richarlison's class but has largely played in a shit Everton team. Could say it's easier to be a rare shining light in bad teams but he's dragged Everton out of a few sticky spots, especially last season, and while his head/confidence can go, resulting in bad decisions or finishing, he'll never hide which would be easy to do for a quality player in bad sides. I sometimes think his antics distract from his quality.