SJFA members in the West

[LongTimeLurker]

To sum up, Rod Petrie is the president of the SFA, but there's a small clique of posters on P&B that were arrogantly convinced they knew more about the inner workings of Scottish football than he did and falsely tried to claim on here that the Tay Bridge boundary was applicable beyond the Club 42 playoff rule when it quite simply wasn't. Luncarty, Letham, Scone and Tayport all were able to wind up on the wrong side of the supposed line because it only ever applied as a written rule in the narrow context of where Club 42 got relegated to.

Even after the Tay Bridge boundary they used to harp on about obsessively was completely removed from the rulebook due to pressure on the LL from the SFA and the SPFL they still seem to think they can childishly dismiss a plan the top SFA officeholder previously proposed through the PWG as a "brain fart" or "fever dream" if it doesn't neatly fit their own preferred EoS-centric narrative about the pyramid.

A third tier 5 was placed on the agenda by the top SFA officeholders only a little over two years back so if there are stakeholders in the pyramid that think that's the better way ahead they are perfectly within their rights to make proposals on that subject through the PWG. If enough of the other stakeholders agree with them pressure can be brought to bear by the SFA as it was over the Club 42 rule because the tail doesn't always get to wag the dog. The SFA can sometimes find the leverage it needs to push something through.

Edited June 22, 2022 by LongTimeLurker

[theesel1994]

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

Before last season clubs in the Scottish Cup got a bye anyway (suppose it's slightly different now as previously it was because they were SJFA qualifiers), but fairly sensible from the SJFA as it'll avoid scheduling headaches.

Means all three competitions - Scottish, Junior and the Alex Jack / Alba / Strathclyde Cups - are on the same date.

Though with the September round played on separates dates, you could still get EOS clubs having to forfeit if they have a league fixture. SJFA might want to get on with the draws...

I know in the past they got a bye - I didn't have a problem with that other than Girvan as they were there or merit.....winning League/Cup. But these clubs that are now choosing to enter the Junior Cup are also getting a bye. It just grinds my gears as a great philosopher once said.

[Burnieman]

53 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

To sum up, Rod Petrie is the president of the SFA, but there's a small clique of posters on P&B that were arrogantly convinced they knew more about the inner workings of Scottish football than he did and falsely tried to claim on here that the Tay Bridge boundary was applicable beyond the Club 42 playoff rule when it quite simply wasn't. Luncarty, Letham, Scone and Tayport all were able to wind up on the wrong side of the supposed line because it only ever applied as a written rule in the narrow context of where Club 42 got relegated to.

Even after the Tay Bridge boundary they used to harp on about obsessively was completely removed from the rulebook due to pressure on the LL from the SFA and the SPFL they still seem to think they can childishly dismiss a plan the top SFA officeholder previously proposed through the PWG as a "brain fart" or "fever dream" if it doesn't neatly fit their own preferred EoS-centric narrative about the pyramid.

A third tier 5 was placed on the agenda by the top SFA officeholders only a little over two years back so if there are stakeholders in the pyramid that think that's the better way ahead they are perfectly within their rights to make proposals on that subject through the PWG. If enough of the other stakeholders agree with them pressure can be brought to bear by the SFA as it was over the Club 42 rule because the tail doesn't always get to wag the dog. The SFA can sometimes find the leverage it needs to push something through.

[Lowland team]

The honest truth of the matter is plan z was booted by both shfl and the slfl really before it actually got started so did LL east and west.the pwg has no power whatsoever,its for want of better word a talking shop.the main problem with this whole scenario is the sjfa only run a cup competition which is unfortunately had its day.the west region and east region ran the leagues which is still the case in the mid and North.am at a loss as to why the sjfa are invited to the pwg. it should be these league's.the sjfa are constantly trying to keep the junior cup relevant simply because it keeps them relevant.any new league would have to be agreed by the 3 leagues spfl shfl. slfl. and the sfa. somehow i really cant see that being agreed anytime soon.

 

[Ginaro]

10 minutes ago, energyzone said:

I was talking to a Hurlford supporter a couple of weeks ago (pre-Darvel v Tranent) who didn't even know that the champions of the West had a play off against the East & South and the winners would enter the Lowland League. I don't know if that is a common lack of knowledge; if so then the whole debate over promotion/relegation at Tiers 5 and below is essentially just reduced to Club Chairmen and P&B posters and change will be a long time coming.

For a club like Hurlford without a licence and not in contention for the league, they weren't going to be in the play-off so I don't think it's too surprising that their supporters might not know about it, especially if they've not been following along with the WOSFL/pyramid news. I mean this season is the first time a "junior" club could get promoted out of the west structure - once clubs start going up I'm sure fans will notice the change happening.

17 minutes ago, theesel1994 said:

I know in the past they got a bye - I didn't have a problem with that other than Girvan as they were there or merit.....winning League/Cup. But these clubs that are now choosing to enter the Junior Cup are also getting a bye. It just grinds my gears as a great philosopher once said.

Sure, though the SJFA's problem is without the bye their cup games will affect league fixtures. There will already be an issue if say Darvel are in a Scottish Cup first round replay, the Junior Cup game on the following Saturday will need to be rearranged - easy enough with a WOS team, more difficult if playing a Midlands or North team.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Lowland team said:

....any new league would have to be agreed by the 3 leagues spfl shfl. slfl. and the sfa. somehow i really cant see that being agreed anytime soon.

Any stakeholder pushing a proposal would need to get everybody but the SLFL on board and the SFA board engaged enough to care about the outcome to the extent they keep pushing it very hard like they did with the Tay Bridge boundary angle for reasons that are still far from obvious. Challenging but so was getting the Club 42 playoff off the ground in the first place and that happened because Alan McRae from Cove Rangers knew how to navigate the blazer politics involved.

The SLFL has arguably been doing its best to antagonise most of the other groups involved (maybe not the SHFL so much) along with its three feeders in recent times so how to fix tier 5 could be very much on the agenda during the upcoming pyramid review through the PWG.  Colt teams and what to do with them if Hibs, Motherwell (as rumoured) and others decide they want in on it as well is the angle the SFA and full-time SPFL clubs might care about enough in a way that places a complete revamp of the LL that opens up tier 5 to many more central belt clubs high on their to do list.

The SJFA didn't address that angle with what they proposed because they are clearly only thinking about what their own clubs would want (e.g. Midlands League no longer feeding into the SHFL, SLFL promotion bottleck bypassed for WoS teams with a structure that keeps the SJC there even at tier 5). Anything with a chance of happening needs to give most of the stakeholders something they want rather than just one of them, so seriously doubt that's happening but somebody in possession of a reasonable IQ might come up with something with deeper thinking behind it than that. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by LongTimeLurker

[Marten]

I've spoken to several people in this area about the chances of us entering the pyramid. I've never heard anyone say option Z was a serious option. And some of these people did previously believe TJ's "done deal" was going to happen. After it became clear that wasn't happening, I've only ever heard 4 options of how the Tayside area could enter the pyramid: join the EoSFL (if they are willing to include Tayside), form a league at tier 7/8 feeding in the EoSFL, form an own tier 6 league under the LL & form an own tier 6 league under the HL. None of this was ever taken to the PWG, instead this was just informally discussed with the EoSFL, LL & HL. After this, it became clear that the latter option was the most realistic and only at that stage formal talks started & the SFA was consulted. Considering option Z was never even mentioned here that says something.

 

And assuming it was OK for the SPFL is just utter nonsense. Option Z was never seen as a serious option outside of a few people in the west.

[LongTimeLurker]

Option Z came from the president of the SFA. People can judge for themselves whether the SFA president is worth taking seriously in the context of the PWG and building a pyramid structure within Scottish football and whether the SFA president is likely to have done that without running it past the SPFL first given both those organisations (plus the SJFA at the time) are based at Hampden making it easy to have a quick chat over a cup of tea. There is also usually some overlap on who is on the SFA and SPFL boards so the left hand knows what the right hand is doing in Scottish football terns.

[Lowland team]

The spfl where invited to the last pwg meeting.thats the first time ever!!! they had been invited.they sent a secretary along because Doncaster and cullum were both otherwise engaged.she only took notes.having sat on both eos and Ll boards and both npg and the pgb.plan z was booted right out the window the only person who ever really brought it up was the junior rep at anytime he could.before!! and after any other meetings. George fraser brought it back to the table both shfl.and the LL dismissed it again.that is why the sjfa took the stance if you take one club you take them all (tj) war cry)hoping to get both tier 5 league's would support it.to my knowledge rod petrie has never suggested it since because everyone knew it wouldn't float.

[Burnieman]

2 hours ago, Marten said:

And assuming it was OK for the SPFL is just utter nonsense. Option Z was never seen as a serious option outside of a few people in the west.

Correct, probably as a result of a cup of tea between TJ and Petrie, and all of a sudden it's being present to WRJFA clubs as a done deal that they just need to vote through  (LL already on board etc.....).

You see similarities between that and what the SJFA have just cooked up recently, minus Petrie.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Burnieman

[FairWeatherFan]

Maybe i'm wrong on the timeline. Wasn't the PWG meeting around mid-December. The aftermath of that meeting was the first anyone heard of 4 options and there was scrambling around to find out what they were.

This would be the first anyone had heard the suggestion of three T5 leagues AND the first time anyone heard of the ERSJFA feeding into the EoS Premier at T7. Showing to me at least, people were just throwing out ideas.

By the end of January it was over. It lived and died in about 6/7 weeks.

In terms of SFA shortsightedness and not knowing what they're doing. 2019 AGM "Let's restrict voting rights to historical members and those in the PGB". Six months later "Let's significantly increase the membership within the PGB"

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by FairWeatherFan

[AsimButtHitsASix]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Maybe i'm wrong on the timeline. Wasn't the PWG meeting in around mid-December. The aftermath of that meeting was the first anyone heard of 4 options and there was scrambling around trying to find out what they were.

This would be the first anyone had heard the suggestoin of the three T5 leagues AND the first time anyone heard of the ERSJFA feeding into the EoS Premier at T7. Showing to me at least people were just throwing out ideas.

By the end of January it was over. It lived and died in about 6/7 weeks.

In terms of SFA shortsightedness and not knowing what they're doing. 2019 AGM "Let's restrict voting rights to historical members and those in the PGB". Six months later "Let's significantly increase the membership within the PGB"

 

I can't remember exact dates but I seem to recall, in a surprisingly short amount of time, a lot (not all) of the West Junior fans seeming absolutely certain "option Z" was gonna happen, everyone else laughing at the idea, it being binned, and the WoSFL being formed instead. 

[Lowland team]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Maybe i'm wrong on the timeline. Wasn't the PWG meeting in around mid-December. The aftermath of that meeting was the first anyone heard of 4 options and there was scrambling around trying to find out what they were.

This would be the first anyone had heard the suggestoin of the three T5 leagues AND the first time anyone heard of the ERSJFA feeding into the EoS Premier at T7. Showing to me at least people were just throwing out ideas.

By the end of January it was over. It lived and died in about 6/7 weeks.

In terms of SFA shortsightedness and not knowing what they're doing. 2019 AGM "Let's restrict voting rights to historical members and those in the PGB". Six months later "Let's significantly increase the membership within the PGB"

 

Look here is another reason it will note work.42 spfl clubs 34 clubs at tier 5. all have full voting rights. 139 clubs and AAs attend yesterday agm only 72 could vote.if you think the spfl and the sfa are going to allow another 16 clubs voting rights your wrong.that way they always have a edge.heard today their looking at clubs with grandfather rights i.e.clubs who are licensed but not in tier 6 removing their voting rights all together to bring it in line.

[FairWeatherFan]

Anyway. Back to a more current topic. As mentioned earlier the Midlands released their fixtures leaving a few Saturdays blank along the way. The assumption being they will be used for the Junior Cup.

Schedule potentially looks like this:

• 27 August - 1st Round (100+)
• 10 September / 24 September - 2nd Round (64)
• 29 October - 3rd Round (32)
• 3 December - 4th Round (16)
• 11 February - Quarter finals
• Fixtures only go up to April 1st - Semi finals / Final

[Marten]

Anyway. Back to a more current topic. As mentioned earlier the Midlands released their fixtures leaving a few Saturdays blank along the way. The assumption being they will be used for the Junior Cup.
Schedule potentially looks like this:

• 27 August - 1st Round (100+)
• 10 September / 24 September - 2nd Round (64)
• 29 October - 3rd Round (32)
• 3 December - 4th Round (16)
• 11 February - Quarter finals
• Fixtures only go up to April 1st - Semi finals / Final

I assume 10 September will be for the North/Tayside Cup, last year it was in the same order.

[Ginaro]

30 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

• 10 September / 24 September - 2nd Round (64)

 

[Blackie Gold]

FFS The midland league, honestly? Somebody starts a thread about teams going back to the Junior Cup and low and behold its hi-jacked by a bunch of boring b*****ds who are raking over the same old shit trying to out-statto each other. Why doesnt one of you start a thread of your own and do us all a favour.

[Black Pennel]

^^ Think that's bad ? You should pop over to the SoSL thread, Blackie...you'll love how they're re-organising all of fitba. Again.

 

 

[Glenconner]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Option Z came from the president of the SFA. People can judge for themselves whether the SFA president is worth taking seriously in the context of the PWG and building a pyramid structure within Scottish football and whether the SFA president is likely to have done that without running it past the SPFL first given both those organisations (plus the SJFA at the time) are based at Hampden making it easy to have a quick chat over a cup of tea. There is also usually some overlap on who is on the SFA and SPFL boards so the left hand knows what the right hand is doing in Scottish football terns.

Massive respect LLL, is that a first you getting red dotted by Marshmallow.

lol

[Burnieman]

47 minutes ago, Black Pennel said:

^^ Think that's bad ? You should pop over to the SoSL thread, Blackie...you'll love how they're re-organising all of fitba. Again.

You're a Threave fan, you should join in............