Lowland League General Discussion

[DiegoDiego]

L2 clubs don’t want a split - who on earth thinks splits are a positive feature of a league.  

Most fans approve of the Premiership split. The only dissenters are dullards who can't get their head around "but the team in seventh can have more points than the team in sixth!"

[Cowden Cowboy]

35 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

2 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

L2 clubs don’t want a split - who on earth thinks splits are a positive feature of a league.  

Most fans approve of the Premiership split. The only dissenters are dullards who can't get their head around "but the team in seventh can have more points than the team in sixth!"

L2 clubs sell hospitality and match sponsorships up front for the season and don’t want unknown venues and dates introduced to their core match programme.  Nor do they want the Lowland League style programme filled with midweek league games - another economic downer 

[FairWeatherFan]

49 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

3 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

L2 clubs don’t want a split - who on earth thinks splits are a positive feature of a league.  

Most fans approve of the Premiership split. The only dissenters are dullards who can't get their head around "but the team in seventh can have more points than the team in sixth!"

I don't think many people really care about getting 4th placed in the Premiership. Often knocked out of Europe after the two games and it's not that big a financial windfall in terms of prize money compared to 5th.

4th place in the lower divisions can be quite significant as seen most recently with Queen's Park and FC Edinburgh getting promoted. Why would they want to give up a balanced schedule and those extra games?

[ekok]

If most ( Premiership) fans are happy with the split, that's their  prerogative ( not a bad word for a dullard). My view it is an ugly construct, but I'm not really bothered. 

What I am bothered about is getting the Pyramid right.. As stated many times and by many people the best outcome would probably come from a root and branch review. Until someone  ( SFA ?) takes the lead, then the usual self Interest of most, if not all of the parties involved will continue to block change.

The revitalised ( ?) Pyramid Working Group should be the vehicle,  no signs yet, let's hope some real dialog can take place in lieu ( another not bad wee word) of the usual entrenched positions.

The issue of promotion/ relegation across SPFL 2 and Tier 5 and 6 is rightly a hot topic.  Honestly believe if Leagues and Clubs at Tier 5 and 6 really come together,  rather than sniping at each other, infinitely more chance of an equitable solution. 

How best to achieve this  ? Get the issue on the agenda of your Club / League, with specific reference to a joint Tier 5 and 6 consensus being agreed. That can then be fed into Pyramid Working Group from all sides . The sheer number of Clubs representing Tier 5 and 6  can surely make voice heard. Yes I have and will continue to do  my little bit. Sorry to say Highland League rather sold the jerseys on this.

The situation below Tier 6 in WoSFL and EoSFL should also be referenced as 100% fit for purpose.

 

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

16 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

18 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

L2 clubs don’t want a split - who on earth thinks splits are a positive feature of a league.  

Most fans approve of the Premiership split. The only dissenters are dullards who can't get their head around "but the team in seventh can have more points than the team in sixth!"

I think most Premiership fans approve of a split because it gives ye something to play for after Christmas when, without it, there'd be half a dozen teams who all know they're gonna end up midtable with f**k all to play for it. Whether it would be preferable to, I dunno, a play off for the final European place and/or expanding the relegaton play off is a different matter.

[invergowrie arab]

I don't know anyone with a highly developed opinion borne of the pros and cons of a split.

It's more like - there is one and its not a big deal 

[Gordon EF]

A split's not ideal but I'd definitely take it if it meant sorting out other problems with the leagues.

10 is too small and means playing everyone 4x which is boring. 20 is far too big. You'd just have some clubs idling around the middle of the same league for years on end and have a large number of meaningless games at the end of the season.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

9 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

A split's not ideal but I'd definitely take it if it meant sorting out other problems with the leagues.

10 is too small and means playing everyone 4x which is boring. 20 is far too big. You'd just have some clubs idling around the middle of the same league for years on end and have a large number of meaningless games at the end of the season.

16 teams is perfect. 30 games. Bulk it out with some daft cups. 
3 up/3down 4-7th promotion play off and 10th-13th in a relegation play off. Not only will every club have something to play for each year but you could go into the final day with promotion or relegation still an option. Make fitba mental again.

Edited August 23, 2022 by AsimButtHitsASix

[ekok]

Now we are talking,  probably take a few seasons to get to something like that, we so need a realistic and time bound plan to get us there. So long as across the whole of the Pyramid, from top to bottom. 

How refreshing would it be for our National game to be organised along those lines.

[DiegoDiego]

16 teams is perfect. 30 games. Bulk it out with some daft cups.

Each to their own but I'd prefer a split with meaningful games against promotion/relegation rivals than yet another diddy Cup which fans and managers won't take seriously until the semis.

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said:

 

Each to their own but I'd prefer a split with meaningful games against promotion/relegation rivals than yet another diddy Cup which fans and managers won't take seriously until the semis.

Extra Cups and less league games and/or splits will not get much traction with the spfl lower league clubs 

[Burnieman]

49 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Extra Cups and less league games and/or splits will not get much traction with the spfl lower league clubs 

So if the lower league clubs wont vote for auto relegation as it is now, and won't vote for an increased league size or splits to enable it, what would they vote for?

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

So if the lower league clubs wont vote for auto relegation as it is now, and won't vote for an increased league size or splits to enable it, what would they vote for?

There is no incentive for them to vote for auto relegation - they get no increased promotion opportunity at top of the league.  They might be persuaded to vote for an increased league size with no splits but that would need funded by the SPFL (or SFA) in terms of prize money without any deduction from existing L2 prize money - plus have no B teams plus there would need to be consideration of how that impacts on SPFL voting structure. 
 

On a personal note and I have always been consistent on this - the LL should be expanded to 18 teams or 20 (plus play almost all its league games on a Saturday in priority to all these cups) with no B teams and have at least 2 up 2 down as a prerequisite for SPFL2 looking at this issue 

[Cowden316]

Personally speaking I totally agree with comments for Lowland League games taking place on a Saturday.

This surely would provide more likelihood of better local economy benefits, potential better revenue streams for clubs i.e hospitality as opposed to midweek clashes and also much more potential engagement of younger children attending games as 7:45pm midweek on a school night will be too late.

I really don't understand why there is so many midweek Lowland League fixtures especially when many of these clubs and their communities would probably benefit Saturday fixtures as highlighted above.

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Cowden316

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, Cowden316 said:

Personally speaking I totally agree with comments for Lowland League games taking place on a Saturday.

This surely would provide more likelihood of better local economy benefits, potential better revenue streams for clubs i.e hospitality as opposed to midweek clashes and also much more potential engagement of younger children attending games as 7:45pm midweek on a school night will be too late.

I really don't understand why there is so many midweek Lowland League fixtures especially when many of these clubs and their communities would probably benefit Saturday fixtures as highlighted above.

There's 41 Saturdays - minus Christmas, Scottish Cup R1 and South Challenge Cup R1 - so 38 available for 36 league games, but actually 38 required since you're idle twice, plus a reserve date in March. 

But if you want to rearrange midweek games I doubt the league will mind - OG Broomhill are out of the South Challenge Cup so that midweek game could be moved. Once If you get put out of the Scottish Cup next month I'm sure there will be other games you could rearrange.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Ginaro

[FairWeatherFan]

45 minutes ago, Cowden316 said:

I really don't understand why there is so many midweek Lowland League fixtures especially when many of these clubs and their communities would probably benefit Saturday fixtures as highlighted above.

 

This season because they're playing 36 games over 38 rounds and have to finish two weeks earlier than SPFL2. 

[DiegoDiego]

I really don't understand why there is so many midweek Lowland League fixtures

Because you bent over to accommodate the wishes of the B teams.

[ekok]

1 hour ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

 and have at least 2 up 2 down as a prerequisite for SPFL2 looking at this issue 

Looking only at this one specific point, why should a league with an automatic relegation rule need to increase that before the league above has even that ? Suggesting  this should be a prerequisite is unrealistic. Likewise  take the moral high ground, hens teeth and all that. Agree 1 is not enough,  but much better than none.

That automatic relegation rule has been in place from day 1. In fact under some circumstances it could increase to two. On the other hand if there is no licensed champion club from Tier 6 , as has happened, then stay of execution, since all clubs at Tier 5 and above must be licensed. That is highly unlikely from now on with number of licensed clubs at Tier 6.

This is a big sticking point for clubs in L.L ( ok as well as self preservation) As has been discussed many times, open up top of LL and more chance see the bottom follow.  Understand fully how unpalatable this is within SPFL and perhaps even more so with standard of clubs coming up from Tier 6 and success of FC Edinburgh   / Cove/ Kelty/ Bonnyrigg. 

Lastly,  using those 4 clubs as an example,  a healthy Pyramid would encourage,  not discourage  more of the same, fond hope perhaps. 

 

[Cowden Cowboy]

8 hours ago, ekok said:

Looking only at this one specific point, why should a league with an automatic relegation rule need to increase that before the league above has even that ? Suggesting  this should be a prerequisite is unrealistic. Likewise  take the moral high ground, hens teeth and all that. Agree 1 is not enough,  but much better than none.

That automatic relegation rule has been in place from day 1. In fact under some circumstances it could increase to two. On the other hand if there is no licensed champion club from Tier 6 , as has happened, then stay of execution, since all clubs at Tier 5 and above must be licensed. That is highly unlikely from now on with number of licensed clubs at Tier 6.

This is a big sticking point for clubs in L.L ( ok as well as self preservation) As has been discussed many times, open up top of LL and more chance see the bottom follow.  Understand fully how unpalatable this is within SPFL and perhaps even more so with standard of clubs coming up from Tier 6 and success of FC Edinburgh   / Cove/ Kelty/ Bonnyrigg. 

Lastly,  using those 4 clubs as an example,  a healthy Pyramid would encourage,  not discourage  more of the same, fond hope perhaps. 

 

But it’s the Lowland League clubs that want change - L2 clubs aren’t agitating for change.  So they can sit tight.  Meantime if LL doesn’t change they can’t claim any high ground and pressure is on from the leagues below which will see disharmony in the pyramid from Tier 5 down rather than a United front - thus much time will be wasted on that battle.  Old rivalries and infighting between east, west, juniors, etc won’t help reach a consensus or be part of a healthy pyramid 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Cowden Cowboy

[LongTimeLurker]

8 hours ago, ekok said:

...That automatic relegation rule has been in place from day 1...

Think you'll find that the rule has been tightened up from time to time rather than opened up as it should have been. From memory there was initially no need to be the champion of either the EoS or SoS to be in the promotion playoff only to be the top-placed licensed club, and there was also a reelection process for any club finishing bottom that would not otherwise be relegated. Threave Rovers left the LL at the end of 2015-16 when they failed to reapply.