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Lowland League General Discussion


FairWeatherFan

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57 minutes ago, Dev said:

Seems to me that the traditional L2 clubs are more interested in the "negotiation from a position of perceived power" than actually taking any meaningful action which would be in the best interests of Scottish football.

If they keep carrying on like this then these clubs won't be around at that elevated level in five to ten years time. Berwick, ES, Cowdenbeath can vouch for that.

This situation had happened too even without many of the powerful WoS clubs which haven't made it yet to Tier 5 - but at least they can get that far on merit, even with a restricted automatic promotion opportunity up to Tier 5. When they reach Tier 4 the current traditional L2 clubs can say Goodbye to that for a long time to come.

 

Very interested to know what these best interests in Scottish football are. 
All I can see from the various clubs that have come in to the leagues is that if they have money they can gather some of the better players together  to progress up a league or 2. 

It doesn’t raise the standards of Scottish football at all, that’s a total myth. 
Most teams involved in this are part time for starters. And it’s the same players, just wearing a different jersey as someone else can offer them a bit more cash.

If it was really in the best interests of Scottish football, things would be set up in a way to maximise development of players and increase the amount of youngsters ( and therefore adults in the future) who play the game.

 

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18 hours ago, ekok said:

Looking only at this one specific point, why should a league with an automatic relegation rule need to increase that before the league above has even that ? Suggesting  this should be a prerequisite is unrealistic. Likewise  take the moral high ground, hens teeth and all that. Agree 1 is not enough,  but much better than none.

That automatic relegation rule has been in place from day 1. In fact under some circumstances it could increase to two. On the other hand if there is no licensed champion club from Tier 6 , as has happened, then stay of execution, since all clubs at Tier 5 and above must be licensed. That is highly unlikely from now on with number of licensed clubs at Tier 6.

This is a big sticking point for clubs in L.L ( ok as well as self preservation) As has been discussed many times, open up top of LL and more chance see the bottom follow.  Understand fully how unpalatable this is within SPFL and perhaps even more so with standard of clubs coming up from Tier 6 and success of FC Edinburgh   / Cove/ Kelty/ Bonnyrigg. 

The LL does not have automatic relegation - one of the four main scenarios is for the bottom club to remain in the league. This remains a possibility until Elgin/Forfar are mathematically safe in L2 or while a unlicensed club is still in contention to win all three tier 6 leagues.

But with a tier 6 club basically guaranteed to be promoted each season, the LL will slowly change for the better so all is not lost. However the SPFL can just wait until the LL is stronger - because just like the LL they are in no hurry to make it easier for their member clubs to be relegated. After all, what's in it for the SPFL to make a change?

9 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think you'll find that the rule has been tightened up from time to time rather than opened up as it should have been. From memory there was initially no need to be the champion of either the EoS or SoS to be in the promotion playoff only to be the top-placed licensed club, and there was also a reelection process for any club finishing bottom that would not otherwise be relegated. Threave Rovers left the LL at the end of 2015-16 when they failed to reapply.

You're going to need to provide a source for that. There was no play-off in 2015-16 when Leith/St Cuthbert won, which surely wouldn't have been the case if it went to the top-placed licensed club.

The LL has actually made it harder for a club to be relegated as there used to be a reelection process, now a club is just reprieved.

Edited by Ginaro
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You sound like someone who is just parroting amateurish business advice.

If clubs haven't considered the poisonous of relegation when deciding how many relegation spots to have in the league then perhaps they could do with some amateurish advice.
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11 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:


 


If clubs haven't considered the poisonous of relegation when deciding how many relegation spots to have in the league then perhaps they could do with some amateurish advice.

If anyone knew what the poisonous of relegation actually meant?! They have decided according to the voting system how many relegation spots should apply and the LL accepted that from day one.  My experience of the pyramid clubs is that many are more insular than the SPFL lower league clubs and still are in the world of the juniors and east v west not seized with progressivism 

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1 hour ago, Ginaro said:

The LL does not have automatic relegation - one of the four main scenarios is for the bottom club to remain in the league. This remains a possibility until Elgin/Forfar are mathematically safe in L2 or while a unlicensed club is still in contention to win all three tier 6 leagues.

But with a tier 6 club basically guaranteed to be promoted each season, the LL will slowly change for the better so all is not lost. However the SPFL can just wait until the LL is stronger - because just like the LL they are in no hurry to make it easier for their member clubs to be relegated. After all, what's in it for the SPFL to make a change?

You're going to need to provide a source for that. There was no play-off in 2015-16 when Leith/St Cuthbert won, which surely wouldn't have been the case if it went to the top-placed licensed club.

The LL has actually made it harder for a club to be relegated as there used to be a reelection process, now a club is just reprieved.

the lowland league do have relegation.the bottom club drop down as vol.and Hawick r.a. whitehill will tell.in the past if there was a club not eligible to come up they could reapply.lothian thistle won the east of scotland but did not have a licence so couldn't come up. and if the LL champion loses the playoff and a highland league club wins it there's a another club to be relegated.

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If anyone knew what the poisonous of relegation actually meant?! They have decided according to the voting system how many relegation spots should apply and the LL accepted that from day one.

Quite clearly a swipetext mistake, it should have said potential, since apologies to all who were confused.

Just as well nothing's changed in the pyramid since day one then. We can lock the whole discussion away in the archives.
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3 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:


 


Quite clearly a swipetext mistake, it should have said potential, since apologies to all who were confused.

Just as well nothing's changed in the pyramid since day one then. We can lock the whole discussion away in the archives.

No I think we are discussing but that it needs more than wish lists and kite flying.  Reality is that SPFL 2 clubs are not myopic and simply wearing the black hats here.  Those lower in the pyramid aren’t in some way pure paragons and exemplars of professionalism and ambition that L2 clubs don’t possess.  

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2 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

My experience of the pyramid clubs is that many are more insular than the SPFL lower league clubs and still are in the world of the juniors and east v west not seized with progressivism 

Define "more insular"? and which clubs? there is no east v west, the tier 6 leagues work together as/when necessary and meet regularly.

Edited by Burnieman
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22 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Define "more insular"? and which clubs? there is no east v west, the tier 6 leagues work together as/when necessary and meet regularly.

More insular - the hold out juniors v the juniors who moved earlier v the Seniors (old east of Scotland leaguers) v the new born clubs v pro b teams v anti b teams plus  let’s play lots of midweek league games so we can keep all sorts of old cup tournaments.  Seems to be a deal of friction much of it legacy based 

Edited by Cowden Cowboy
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11 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

More insular - the hold out juniors v the juniors who moved earlier v the Seniors (old east of Scotland leaguers) v the new born clubs v pro b teams v anti b teams plus  let’s play lots of midweek league games so we can keep all sorts of old cup tournaments.  Seems to be a deal of friction much of it legacy based 

As I said, there's no league v league friction at tier 6 of which 95% are former Junior clubs.  There's no friction between original EoS and former Juniors that I've seen, it's working well, and the last handful of Junior clubs who moved seem to be adapting fine.  There will always be mumps and moans of some sort, just like in the SPFL.  Maybe a few people hark back to the "good old days" of the Juniors but very few seriously think those days are coming back.

There probably is friction between tier 6 and the LL currently, for obvious reasons.

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2 hours ago, Lowland team said:

the lowland league do have relegation.the bottom club drop down as vol.and Hawick r.a. whitehill will tell.in the past if there was a club not eligible to come up they could reapply.lothian thistle won the east of scotland but did not have a licence so couldn't come up. and if the LL champion loses the playoff and a highland league club wins it there's a another club to be relegated.

You were told to go and read the rules, and you clearly haven't done so. To make it simple for you, here they are - again, there is no automatic relegation from the LL

llrel.PNG

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14 hours ago, Ginaro said:

...You're going to need to provide a source for that. There was no play-off in 2015-16 when Leith/St Cuthbert won, which surely wouldn't have been the case if it went to the top-placed licensed club.

The LL has actually made it harder for a club to be relegated as there used to be a reelection process, now a club is just reprieved.

Wrote "from memory" for a reason. Don't have time to track that down right now but odds on there will be posts on here that will still be accessible through the search function with a bit of effort. My recollection is that the tightening up to playoffs for champions only happened before 2015/16. The reelection angle was what I was mentioning in the context of Threave because they failed to reapply after that season. Think that was tightened up to simply being reprieved after the season Selkirk folded midseason when there was the whole fiasco over what was meant by bottom club.

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14 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

More insular - the hold out juniors v the juniors who moved earlier v the Seniors (old east of Scotland leaguers) v the new born clubs v pro b teams v anti b teams plus  let’s play lots of midweek league games so we can keep all sorts of old cup tournaments.  Seems to be a deal of friction much of it legacy based 

Correct.

The SJFA AGM 2022

Hey lads, lads let's set our own LL to rival the tinpot LL.

End result would be two tinpot Lowland Leagues.

You couldn't make it up.

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I deliberately used the phrase " relegation rule"  to simplify what has been a developing situation over the years as outlined by LTL in last post. On reflection I would have been better explaining,  as far as I know, no team has ever been denied promotion,  so long as they met the qualification requirements,  basically champion club with SFA Licence,  latterly winning play offs. Yes that has meant some clubs did avoid relegation from LL. Stand ready  to be corrected if I am wrong. 

On other hand the LL has been proactive when required to insure potentially qualifying teams didn't miss out due to timing issues around their Licence being confirmed,  not sure, think Bonnyrigg  ?

 

 

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21 hours ago, Ginaro said:

You're going to need to provide a source for that. There was no play-off in 2015-16 when Leith/St Cuthbert won, which surely wouldn't have been the case if it went to the top-placed licensed club.

From the beginning it was basically a C+P job of the HL/LL Playoff rules just replacing those leagues with the SoS/EoS. Existing SFA members were all working on their licences but didn't necessarily want to end up in the Lowland League. In those years with so many vacancies a best placed licenced club could just apply.

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Correct , the rules before and after the LL was up to full strength were different. As of last few seasons only champion clubs were eligible.  Thought it strange SoS declared null and void in Covid season, rather than declaring  champions on PPG, as did others,  probably best leave that at that .

 

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20 hours ago, Ginaro said:

You were told to go and read the rules, and you clearly haven't done so. To make it simple for you, here they are - again, there is no automatic relegation from the LL

llrel.PNG

please read again i never said there was automatic relegation.what i said was clubs have been relegated and i named 3 of them.

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