Lowland League General Discussion

[Cowden Cowboy]

22 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think you'll find that the rule has been tightened up from time to time rather than opened up as it should have been. From memory there was initially no need to be the champion of either the EoS or SoS to be in the promotion playoff only to be the top-placed licensed club, and there was also a reelection process for any club finishing bottom that would not otherwise be relegated. Threave Rovers left the LL at the end of 2015-16 when they failed to reapply.

We all know what the status quo is and that is an existing negotiated agreement.  Now if the pyramid negotiating stance is we want automatic promotion (ie an improved deal) what do L2 clubs get in return - they are being offered nothing if that’s the only aspect of the deal.  So no reason for them to agree - the it will make easier to bounce back line is hardly compelling as that has always been the case and has not gained any traction.  Or is it envisaged that the B team scenario will get big hitters supporting change - but only to be scuppered by the vote.  

[ekok]

Agree with most of that. Would argue LL already has some high ground with one automatic versus none in L2.

Also the LL has been active for many years on this issue, with not one inch of compromise from L2. Being asked to increase the one under those circumstances is huge, perhaps too much, without the slightest sign that this would make an iota of difference to L2 position.  

 

 

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, ekok said:

Agree with most of that. Would argue LL already has some high ground with one automatic versus none in L2.

Also the LL has been active for many years on this issue, with not one inch of compromise from L2. Being asked to increase the one under those circumstances is huge, perhaps too much, without the slightest sign that this would make an iota of difference to L2 position.  

 

 

It doesn’t have any high ground - there was no promotion to the SPFL but a bargain was struck and you now have the promotion opportunity that never existed before - several LL clubs have now been promoted.  You ask for compromise from L2 but that surely involves both sides giving and gaining something.  L2 are being offered nothing to concede automatic promotion - thus it is more a demand than a compromise - no way to negotiate.  I can’t recall a formal automatic promotion ever being put to L2 clubs despite you saying LL clubs have been active on this for many years - unless accompanied by the perceived B team poison pill.  Extending promotion and relegation at foot of LL is an entirely different matter - resisting it though reveals a  pyramid that is fractured, self interest and a lack of leadership and vision.  It is not a trade off for concessions from L2 nor did a pyramid review being set up without any discussion with L2 win friends and influence people in that vital voting constituency.  Those aren’t winning hands 

[Cardle is Magic]

Calum Elliot has left Tranent? Seems a bit out of nowhere.

[Omnishambles]

10 minutes ago, Cardle is Magic said:

Calum Elliot has left Tranent? Seems a bit out of nowhere.

His own decision and not that of the club's, apparently. Bizarre timing, especially given our relatively good start to the season. A good side performing well and an attractive job for someone to walk into though.

[LongTimeLurker]

4 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

... they are being offered nothing if that’s the only aspect of the deal ...

If the part-time L1 and L2 clubs were to look at this rationally it's a reasonable assumption that around half of them will be relegated at some point over the next generation, so if they were sensible about it they would look at this from both angles and come to the conclusion that an easier route back into the SPFL could be in their long term interests.

[Cowden Cowboy]

7 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If the part-time L1 and L2 clubs were to look at this rationally it's a reasonable assumption that around half of them will be relegated at some point over the next generation, so if they were sensible about it they would look at this from both angles and come to the conclusion that an easier route back into the SPFL could be in their long term interests.

Folk keep saying this and it just isn’t a compelling argument - most Clubs in L2 don’t spend much time thinking about being in the Lowland League.  That argument isn’t and hasn’t persuaded any L1/2 clubs.  Are clubs in the Lowland League agitating for 2 or 3 clubs to be auto promoted from Tier 6 which would give them an easier route back?  

[cowdenbeath]

2 hours ago, Omnishambles said:

His own decision and not that of the club's, apparently. Bizarre timing, especially given our relatively good start to the season. A good side performing well and an attractive job for someone to walk into though.

Maybe got something lined up?

[DiegoDiego]

most Clubs in L2 don’t spend much time thinking about being in the Lowland League.

Maybe they should.

[Cowden Cowboy]

8 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

 

Maybe they should.

That’ll do the trick then

[DiegoDiego]

That’ll do the trick then

Any club that doesn't have plans for the possibility of relegation deserves relegation.

[Cowden Cowboy]

5 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

12 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

That’ll do the trick then

Any club that doesn't have plans for the possibility of relegation deserves relegation.

A lot of tosh 

[Omnishambles]

30 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

Maybe got something lined up?

That or some sort of fallout with the committee seem the only explanations. No idea.

[FairWeatherFan]

The wants and whims of the SPFL2 clubs seem to be held in far higher regard on here than in the SPFL. Want to expand the SPFL? That takes money. Want to increase relegation from the SPFL? That takes money as clubs aren't likely to sign up for something without a parachute payment.

They don't control the purse strings. That's why we get the OF and the offers of bribes and not taking any prize money.

For now the SPFL2 clubs. Hit with the stick of lacking ambition are more likely to aim for being the next Montrose and avoid the drip feed of relegation into non-league football. At the very least stave it off for a number of years to milk the SPFL for every advantage they can get while they can. Not open up the plug and risk obscurity or becoming a yo-yo club.

If the Lowland League wants to improve itself then it's in a rare circumstance where opening up relegation will see better supported clubs become members. That'll make it easier to attract better sponsorships. With only the 16 members to split up any extra funds maybe they could actually dish out some prize money or cover all their fees for the season without relying on the Colts money. Little things that are better than the nothing they're used to before teams paid an entrance fee.

 

[Cowden Cowboy]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The wants and whims of the SPFL2 clubs seem to be held in far higher regard on here than in the SPFL. Want to expand the SPFL? That takes money. Want to increase relegation from the SPFL? That takes money as clubs aren't likely to sign up for something without a parachute payment.

They don't control the purse strings. That's why we get the OF and the offers of bribes and not taking any prize money.

For now the SPFL2 clubs. Hit with the stick of lacking ambition are more likely to aim for being the next Montrose and avoid the drip feed of relegation into non-league football. At the very least stave it off for a number of years to milk the SPFL for every advantage they can get while they can. Not open up the plug and risk obscurity or becoming a yo-yo club.

If the Lowland League wants to improve itself then it's in a rare circumstance where opening up relegation will see better supported clubs become members. That'll make it easier to attract better sponsorships. With only the 16 members to split up any extra funds maybe they could actually dish out some prize money or cover all their fees for the season without relying on the Colts money. Little things that are better than the nothing they're used to before teams paid an entrance fee.

 

Well a smart move would be that if the pyramid review produces nothing as regards the Tier 4 entry then the LL clubs should be compensated by the SFA in terms of some commitment as regards funding ongoing prize money - they after all agreed B teams to help the football authorities - fully agree that LL needs opened up to ensure that the best sides in Lowlands end up in Tier 5 as soon as reasonably possible.  That makes for bigger crowds, more sponsorship and a more vibrant and important competition 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Cowden Cowboy

[DiegoDiego]

A lot of tosh 

The sort of club which is so poorly run it doesn't consider the possibility of relegation is the sort which will find themselves surpassed by the well-run clubs currently farther down the pyramid.

[Cowden Cowboy]

2 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

1 hour ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

A lot of tosh 

The sort of club which is so poorly run it doesn't consider the possibility of relegation is the sort which will find themselves surpassed by the well-run clubs currently farther down the pyramid.

You sound like someone who is just parroting amateurish business advice.  Businesses consider many possibilities, they develop strategies which they sensitise and they of course evolve.  But they don’t develop detailed plans for every possible outcome - they adapt as circumstances change and matters develop.  You don’t have unlimited management resources to scope out every twist and turn.  Possibilities are possibilities - but few clubs extensively prioritise planning for relegation if they have any ambition at all until circumstances point in that direction. 

[Dev]

2 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Folk keep saying this and it just isn’t a compelling argument - most Clubs in L2 don’t spend much time thinking about being in the Lowland League.  That argument isn’t and hasn’t persuaded any L1/2 clubs.  Are clubs in the Lowland League agitating for 2 or 3 clubs to be auto promoted from Tier 6 which would give them an easier route back?  

Seems to me that the traditional L2 clubs are more interested in the "negotiation from a position of perceived power" than actually taking any meaningful action which would be in the best interests of Scottish football.

If they keep carrying on like this then these clubs won't be around at that elevated level in five to ten years time. Berwick, ES, Cowdenbeath can vouch for that.

This situation had happened too even without many of the powerful WoS clubs which haven't made it yet to Tier 5 - but at least they can get that far on merit, even with a restricted automatic promotion opportunity up to Tier 5. When they reach Tier 4 the current traditional L2 clubs can say Goodbye to that for a long time to come.

 

[Cowden Cowboy]

12 minutes ago, Dev said:

Seems to me that the traditional L2 clubs are more interested in the "negotiation from a position of perceived power" than actually taking any meaningful action which would be in the best interests of Scottish football.

If they keep carrying on like this then these clubs won't be around at that elevated level in five to ten years time. Berwick, ES, Cowdenbeath can vouch for that.

This situation had happened too even without many of the powerful WoS clubs which haven't made it yet to Tier 5 - but at least they can get that far on merit, even with a restricted automatic promotion opportunity up to Tier 5. When they reach Tier 4 the current traditional L2 clubs can say Goodbye to that for a long time to come.

 

They can get all the way to Tier 1 on merit 

[Gordon EF]

Odds of a particular  tier 6 champion being promoted into tier 5 = 33.3%

Odds of a particular tier 5 champion being promoted into tier 4 = 25%

Let's not pretend that extra 8.3% makes the world of difference.

There should be automatic promotion between all tiers of the pyramid but, being realistic, the voting structure of the SPFL means any proposal is very easily blocked if it doesn't get the approval of clubs right through the leagues. There would absolutely need to be some degree of horse trading.

I don't think the number of automatic promotion or relegation spots between tiers 5 and 6 comes into the SPFL clubs thinking at all. All it does is make the LL clubs screaming for more spots into the SPFL look like hypocrites.