Lowland League General Discussion

[ekok]

I agree Che is quite right to open a discussion on this thread. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Colts in the LL, there is a bigger picture.The LL has at least tried to acknowledge that and for sure this has raised hugely the profile of this issue across Scotland. Let's see how this all pans out and judge then.

  His stats back up the contention that B teams help the development of younger players.That is why Holland and many other countries have these. Not suggesting for one minute the only reason these countries produce a conveyor belt of young talent, but must be seen as worthwhile,  clubs would not invest considerable funding otherwise. 

Last night was just another total embarrassment of Scottish football in Europe outwith the Old Firm. They both have much to answer for within our game, but as Che says without them our standing would be diminished. 

So back to why this is ok  on LL thread. We are at least trying to be part of a solution. The structure of Scottish football is crying out for change,  from top to bottom.  Something that is even a small practical manifestation of change surely is welcome. At very least keeps the issue alive, even if only on this thread.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, ekok said:

Last night was just another total embarrassment of Scottish football

Yup, that new SPFL TV deal is a total joke. Go all the way back to 2008 and Setanta were going to pay £125m over 4 years = £31.25m p/a. The competing Sky Sports deal was something like £120m over 4 years.

By 2029 the TV deal still won't scrape £30m p/a by the sound of it.

Sorry I don't care about a team I don't support, getting knocked out of a competition I don't watch. The best young players in the country are being cherrypicked for peanuts by clubs with far bigger budgets than Scottish clubs can offer, or already playing first team football elsewhere. Not kicking about the Lowland League.

 

[Ranaldo Bairn]

46 minutes ago, ekok said:

I agree Che is quite right to open a discussion on this thread. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Colts in the LL, there is a bigger picture.The LL has at least tried to acknowledge that and for sure this has raised hugely the profile of this issue across Scotland. Let's see how this all pans out and judge then.

  His stats back up the contention that B teams help the development of younger players.That is why Holland and many other countries have these. Not suggesting for one minute the only reason these countries produce a conveyor belt of young talent, but must be seen as worthwhile,  clubs would not invest considerable funding otherwise. 

Last night was just another total embarrassment of Scottish football in Europe outwith the Old Firm. They both have much to answer for within our game, but as Che says without them our standing would be diminished. 

So back to why this is ok  on LL thread. We are at least trying to be part of a solution. The structure of Scottish football is crying out for change,  from top to bottom.  Something that is even a small practical manifestation of change surely is welcome. At very least keeps the issue alive, even if only on this thread.

Oh Christ, here's another one with clueless hot takes about B teams.

I wonder if @Martenwould like to comment on the Netherlands situation (again).

[AsimButtHitsASix]

10 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Did AZ Alkmaar send their 'B' team to Tannadice?

What an embarrassment. 

Without Rangers and Celtic, our top league is on a par with the League of Ireland.  And folk are furious about B-Teams at Tier 5, calling it tinpot, as if the Lowland League is the problem, citing 'sporting integrity'.

7-0 is a shambles.  

Some stats from tonight:

MoM Pavlidis (2 goals +2 assists) - played 32 times for Dortmund B

Reijnders (2 goals) - played 92 times for Jong Ajax

de Wit (1 goals) - played 56 times for Jong Ajax

Evjen (1 goal + 1 assist) - played 56 times for Jong Ajax

van Brederode (age 19) - CF played 12 times for Jong Ajax

NOT TIN-POT. 

Mon the Lowland League 

 

First of all our league is not a par with the League of Ireland. Scottish clubs have always managed weird howlers against Irish clubs before sorting it out in the 2nd leg. Motherwell just never managed the 2nd leg part this time. Rangers only drew with Bohemians in '75 and lost against them in '84, Celtic drew with Dundalk in '79, Bohemians drew with Dundee Utd in '85, St. Pat's drew with Celtic in '98. Until the other week only times Scottish clubs have lost over two legs to Irish teams would be when Bohemians knocked out Aberdeen in 2000 and Derry City hammered the remains of Gretna in 2006. In more recent matches Sligo have been papped out the Challenge Cup by diddy teams like Falkirk, Elgin and, hilariously, Motherwell B. Bohemians have been skelpt by Airdrie. Bray Wanderers were beaten by Elgin and Waterford despatched by Stenhousemuir. Two shite results for Motherwell doesn't suddenly mean Limerick are better than Hearts. Behave yersel. The only times Irish clubs have won in our diddy cup has been against B teams.

And you really can't grasp causation and correlation can you? There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that, because less than half of the AZ team played for B teams, that B teams are the reason AZ won. When Hibs got spanked 7-0 by Malmo there wasn't a single player in that Malmo team who had played B team football as far as I am aware. Even if we include Celtic getting humped 7-0 by Barcelona the 33 starting opposition players in question are still mostly made up of players who haven't played B team football. 

[ekok]

Ah well, just remembered why I really didn't miss adding thoughts to PnB.

Try to make a considered, rational and hopefully broad based contribution , what do you get ?

Same old tired, parochial , delusional and disrespectful responses. 

Hm, could be a description of Scottish football, in some but not all quarters.

Main thrust, we need fundamental change, we get found out big time in Europe.

Yes even sometimes Old Firm, recently , always everyone else.

Lowland League at least trying , in own limited way to do something.  

 

[cowdenbeath]

3 minutes ago, ekok said:

Ah well, just remembered why I really didn't miss adding thoughts to PnB.

Try to make a considered, rational and hopefully broad based contribution , what do you get ?

Same old tired, parochial , delusional and disrespectful responses. 

Hm, could be a description of Scottish football, in some but not all quarters.

Main thrust, we need fundamental change, we get found out big time in Europe.

Yes even sometimes Old Firm, recently , always everyone else.

Lowland League at least trying , in own limited way to do something.  

 

I think the clubs who voted for the B teams were thinking about the money they could possibly make rather than to overall good of Scottish football.

 

[DiegoDiego]

Some stats from tonight:
MoM Pavlidis (2 goals +2 assists) - played 32 times for Dortmund B
Reijnders (2 goals) - played 92 times for Jong Ajax
de Wit (1 goals) - played 56 times for Jong Ajax
Evjen (1 goal + 1 assist) - played 56 times for Jong Ajax
van Brederode (age 19) - CF played 12 times for Jong Ajax

  His stats back up the contention that B teams help the development of younger players.

Whit? His stats show that the majority of the AZ team didn't play B team football. It's hardly backing up the contention.

[ekok]

 Not suggesting B team football is the answer to all our ills. Still think clubs abroad must think it is worth their time and cash. My main thrust is we desperately need to restructure football in Scotland,  

[DiegoDiego]

Still think clubs abroad must think it is worth their time and cash.

It's worth it to them as individual clubs, but you can easily argue that it comes at a cost to the structure as a whole.

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, ekok said:

 Not suggesting B team football is the answer to all our ills. Still think clubs abroad must think it is worth their time and cash. My main thrust is we desperately need to restructure football in Scotland,  

Some of its historical. Places that have had 2nd XIs for a while have become more restrictive like Germany and France where the highest division they can play is a step lower than 20 years ago.

The more modern introduction is just like here. Bigger clubs using their positions of power and influence on the FAs and Leagues to gain entry into their pyramid. Serie C for example has always been a bombscare in Italy with teams getting kicked out or dissolved on an annual basis. Juve played the stability and national interest cards to get in.

[annan4eva]

44 minutes ago, ekok said:

 Not suggesting B team football is the answer to all our ills. Still think clubs abroad must think it is worth their time and cash. My main thrust is we desperately need to restructure football in Scotland,  

I agree 100 %

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 hour ago, ekok said:

 Not suggesting B team football is the answer to all our ills. Still think clubs abroad must think it is worth their time and cash. My main thrust is we desperately need to restructure football in Scotland,  

Am I the only person who has noticed we are undergoing the biggest restructure in Scottish football history in recent years?

We've returned to one league body in the professional game instead of the stupid failure of the breakaway SPL.

We've opened up promotion and relegation to the league.

We've created a fully integrated national pyramid that takes clubs from every region in Scotland apart from the Western Isles and Shetland and gives them a chance of progression and players opportunities to advance.

We're beginning to see the first "performance schools" players come through and make a mark at club and international level.

We've recently qualified for our first major championship since I was going through puberty and were closer to the World Cup at any point in two decades.

A Scottish club was one penalty kick away from being a European Champion.

Our co-efficient has risen and we now have two clubs in the Champions League path.

Yes, Motherwell fucked up against Sligo, but these results happen. And Dundee Utd might have got hammered but were up against a club with a wage budget five times their own featuring international players from Japan, Greece, Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium and Norway. They were always rank outsiders for that game. 

What is the desperate need to restructure when
A: we're sitting, pretty much, where a country of our size and finances should be and
B: we're currently restructuring the f**k out of the game as it is?

"a desperate need to restructure" is pearl clutching nonsense

Edited August 12, 2022 by AsimButtHitsASix

[Ranaldo Bairn]

29 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Am I the only person who has noticed we are undergoing the biggest restructure in Scottish football history in recent years?

We've returned to one league body in the professional game instead of the stupid failure of the breakaway SPL.

We've opened up promotion and relegation to the league.

We've created a fully integrated national pyramid that takes clubs from every region in Scotland apart from the Western Isles and Shetland and gives them a chance of progression and players opportunities to advance.

We're beginning to see the first "performance schools" players come through and make a mark at club and international level.

We've recently qualified for our first major championship since I was going through puberty and were closer to the World Cup at any point in two decades.

A Scottish club was one penalty kick away from being a European Champion.

Our co-efficient has risen and we now have two clubs in the Champions League path.

Yes, Motherwell fucked up against Sligo, but these results happen. And Dundee Utd might have got hammered but were up against a club with a wage budget five times their own featuring international players from Japan, Greece, Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium and Norway. They were always rank outsiders for that game. 

What is the desperate need to restructure when
A: we're sitting, pretty much, where a country of our size and finances should be and
B: we're currently restructuring the f**k out of the game as it is?

"a desperate need to restructure" is pearl clutching nonsense

Very well summarised. Of course there are things we want to attend to, mainly the grotesque imbalance between the 2 and the 40, but things are moving.

[ekok]

Asim a very well constructed argument,  thankfully missing the personal attacks from some. I agree with almost everything you say, we clearly share a love of football in Scotland. 

My contention is all of this this is despite not because of the structure. With a supportive and forward looking set up we could and should have a kick ass game that reflects the passion you, I and countless others show.

We are being forced to accept 2nd or even 3rd best versions. It remains a disgrace that in country that lives and breathes football we are still held back by vested interests at every turn.

Ok B teams in LL is not a panacea, but maybe it's a small seed.

[Marten]

8 hours ago, ekok said:

I agree Che is quite right to open a discussion on this thread. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Colts in the LL, there is a bigger picture.The LL has at least tried to acknowledge that and for sure this has raised hugely the profile of this issue across Scotland. Let's see how this all pans out and judge then.

  His stats back up the contention that B teams help the development of younger players.That is why Holland and many other countries have these. Not suggesting for one minute the only reason these countries produce a conveyor belt of young talent, but must be seen as worthwhile,  clubs would not invest considerable funding otherwise. 

Last night was just another total embarrassment of Scottish football in Europe outwith the Old Firm. They both have much to answer for within our game, but as Che says without them our standing would be diminished. 

So back to why this is ok  on LL thread. We are at least trying to be part of a solution. The structure of Scottish football is crying out for change,  from top to bottom.  Something that is even a small practical manifestation of change surely is welcome. At very least keeps the issue alive, even if only on this thread.

Considering that you call Holland a country, this post is really not worth replying to... The stats that Che Dail keeps coming with are meaningless. In The Netherlands, the B-teams have been a disaster and it's definitely not universally agreed that they add much value to player development.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Am I the only person who has noticed we are undergoing the biggest restructure in Scottish football history in recent years?

We've returned to one league body in the professional game instead of the stupid failure of the breakaway SPL.

We've opened up promotion and relegation to the league.

We've created a fully integrated national pyramid that takes clubs from every region in Scotland apart from the Western Isles and Shetland and gives them a chance of progression and players opportunities to advance.

We're beginning to see the first "performance schools" players come through and make a mark at club and international level.

We've recently qualified for our first major championship since I was going through puberty and were closer to the World Cup at any point in two decades.

A Scottish club was one penalty kick away from being a European Champion.

Our co-efficient has risen and we now have two clubs in the Champions League path.

Yes, Motherwell fucked up against Sligo, but these results happen. And Dundee Utd might have got hammered but were up against a club with a wage budget five times their own featuring international players from Japan, Greece, Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium and Norway. They were always rank outsiders for that game. 

What is the desperate need to restructure when
A: we're sitting, pretty much, where a country of our size and finances should be and
B: we're currently restructuring the f**k out of the game as it is?

"a desperate need to restructure" is pearl clutching nonsense

We definitely do not need a restructure just a few changes here and there, we have got to a situation which is absolutely huge for Scottish football.  If you would have asked me 6 years ago that we would have a fully working pyramid system that gives chances to any club in a division 4 of the WOSFL at tier 10 have the option, potential to move up the leagues into SPFL2 or 1, the championship or even the premier league, I would have thought you should be in Levendale hospital in the lock up ward.  That in essence is what is possible, any team can move up, obviously there is many things that must be done along the way but there is a potential.  I'm mainly looking at it on lower league levels from tier 10 right up to SPFL2

Yes there is still some work but we have an operating system that is working but just needs streamlined, i do inch myself and I'm excited when i look at the structure and think, looking at the Scottish pyramid system leagues in 2, 5 and 10 years time will be differently populated with different teams who have moved up the ranks, leagues while higher ones at the moment will move down.

We have a development league which is an excellent, fantastic football section which is going to open the door to many a grassroot player to rise and fulfil their dreams or even giving their dreams a chance to reach a higher level in professional football.

There is so much positive going on its unreal and the negatives, you can clearly see they will eventually evaporate over time and the structure of Scottish football continues to grow again, one I'm looking forward to watching for a long time to come 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Bestsinceslicebread

[FairWeatherFan]

43 minutes ago, ekok said:

Ok B teams in LL is not a panacea, but maybe it's a small seed.

To what exactly?

At the moment its replicating a lot of the ills of Scottish football. Hoarding players with larger squads, clubs being dependent on a small bump in away crowds a couple of times a season, a few clubs crowding out the limited media attention given to the league.

 

 

 

[rockson]

8 hours ago, ekok said:

Main thrust, we need fundamental change, we get found out big time in Europe.

 

 

Maybe we're just not as good as we like to think we are.  We have no entitlement to good results in Europe. None at all. That we had some in the past was probably an anomaly.

We're a small nation on the northwest periphery of Europe and we haven't invested in grass roots football for decades.

Take a look at Iceland for example. Training facilities that can be used year-round. even in an Icelandic winter.

Now that money is all that talks in elite football our cash starved game just can't compete. Don't expect it to.

[ekok]

.A five year old with a pencil and a blank piece of paper could come up with a more coherent structure.

For example how do we end up last seaon with a top division final table with 4 teams below team 6 having  more points/ better goal difference than they do ? Seriously?

For example. How come the teams that finish last in SPFL2 get a get out of jail play off ( insult to injury they always get second leg at home. Sporting integrity,  seriously?). I would be happy to stand corrected if this happens anywhere else on the planet. Seriously?

For example, the logjam from Tier 6 to 5 needs addressing,  100% guarantee sorting Team 42 debacle is the key.

Have said my piece, hope we can get a structure our national passion deserves. 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

14 minutes ago, ekok said:

For example, the logjam from Tier 6 to 5 needs addressing,

To take this as an example last year was the first year we've had a full tier 6*

It's the first time that most "big" non-league clubs like Auchinleck, Clydebank, Lochee United, etc. have even had the opportunity to gain promotion to the LL and, for the majority of them, they wouldn't be allowed promotion anyway as they are unlicensed. Everyone knows it needs addressing, and it will be addressed, but there's been only one season of a full tier six. Restructuring is happening but the foundations need to be laid first. It's a big jump to expect everything in the pyramid to be in place immediately.

*without insulting the SoS and, especially, the EoS. The number of teams in the EoS alone means there should have been more than one relegation spot from the LL but Rome wasn't built in a day. Tier 6 has been there for a while and it's not the fault of clubs already there that others took longer to get round to joining.